Little Bubba
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Cathay vs. 121 PIC
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From Pprune...
On leaving Continental for Cathay
Mark Skid:
Take Milly's comment for what it's worth. If you're offered a DEFO job on the passenger fleet, take it. I haven't heard of any offerings for North American passenger DEFO's, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It pays a lot more (at least until the conditions of service change. The last effort to try to "align" the conditions of service for passenger/freighter pilots didn't work out too well. The pilot group wisely rejected it, recognizing it for what it was - a shafting for the new guys AND the current SO's.). I disagree with Milly that passenger F/O is a better job. If I could have passenger pay for flying the freighter, THAT would be the best of both worlds in my view.
Having said that, here's my reply:
Take a lot of the negativity re: Cathay with a grain of salt. While (that's "whilst" for the Queen's subjects reading this post, hehehe) there is some truth to the negative comments, the conditions here are not at all as negative as some would have you believe.
For my part, I'm very happy here.
I'm based in JFK on the freighter, by the way.
Most Americans who have joined Cathay in the last couple of years are airline refugees. Of those refugees, some plan to return to their old jobs when recalled, some are trying to get hired by UPS/FedEx, and some hope to make Cathay their long-term home. As an aside, it appears that lately the pool of high-time oldster refugees is drying up, and Cathay has begun fishing in the regional pilot pool.
Cathay is NOT for everybody. I should repeat that: Cathay is NOT for everybody!! From my perspective, the key to success is to try mightily to just "fit in". That means simply recognizing that Mister Swire owns all of the toys in the toybox, and has the right to tell you EXACTLY how to play with them. And if you play with Mister Swire's toys EXACTLY as you're told, everything will be fine. However, if you don't, your shortcomings will most likely be brought to your attention with varying degrees of diplomacy. Rather than thinking about what an undiplomatic dick the guy next to you is, it's probably best just to focus on eliminating your errors. It'll make your next sim ride easier anyway.
The bottom line analysis needs to focus on at least 4 issues: money, benefits, quality of life, and job security.
1. Money: The money might be a "wash". If you get on a widebody at Continental early, you might even make more money over a career. The uncertainty of WHEN you will upgrade to captain at Cathay makes the determination of career earnings a little tricky.
2. Benefits: The medical benefits are fantastic (at least while you're working). (Oddly, however, pap smears, breast exams, and vasectomies are not covered.) There is no dental coverage. And perhaps most importantly (at least to an old guy like me), there is no medical coverage for retirees. This might be because most CX pilots have some form of national health coverage available in retirement. I'm just speculating on this point, because I can't imagine why else this would be the case. The 15.5% Provident Fund kicker (whether you take it in cash, or in the Provident Fund) isn't bad either.
3. Quality of life: As a freighter F/O I have a TON of time off. Plus vacation. But quality of life includes the quality of your work life. The quality of my life in the cockpit is very, very good. I enjoy virtually all of the crewmembers I fly with (whether they are diplomatic or not. Most are, by the way.) The training environment is another story, perhaps. I've come to realize that the problems with the training at Cathay are mostly systemic - that is, Cathay "training" culture is really just checking - but this is made MUCH worse as we pay attention to the whining of our colleagues. While in training, your colleagues are your WORST enemies. Without the infectious stress they spew around, "training" here would be much easier.
4. Job security: This is a bit of an irony: Cathay is probably one of the most financially secure airlines in the world. And they're determined to remain that way. So from that standpoint, this is a VERY secure job.
However, the company can "sack" you at any time, for any reason. You'll get 3 months severance (after you've been here a year), and you'll get shown the door. Period. Having said that, Cathay is in the business of running an airline, not terrorizing its employees. So from my perspective, they would only fire a pilot for cause.
Now, before the other ppruners jump on my face, I suppose I should make the obligatory mention of the 49'ers. I've flown with 3 freighter 49'er captains - all magnificent chaps, by the way. And I'm convinced that these were good men, and good employees. Not flawless employees, but certainly not the sort of persons deserving of summary dismissal. They were, in my view, "collateral damage" in a pissing contest between the company and the AOA. In any event, the one thing you have at Continental that we do NOT have at Cathay is the Railway Labor Act. There is enormous protection for airline employees under the RLA. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. The RLA, in combination with your contract, almost make termination from a U.S. airline impossible.
None of this directly answers the question of whether you should leave Continental for Cathay. Part of the calculus that's missing here is personal to you: How old are you? What's your experience level? How willing are you to just "fit in"? - (which for me, requires LOTS of continuous study - something I'm not used to doing for my flying job. This, by the way, is partially necessitated by the small amount of work I'm required to do each month. It's easy to forget even normal procedures when you only perform them a few times each month.) Are you interested in living in Hong Kong? (Not a requirement, as far as I'm concerned. From where I sit, it appears you could stay on a U.S. basing your entire career, but HK is where the real money is.)
If I were in your situation, it would be a difficult choice for me. Having been on both sides of the question, the grass is greener on both sides of the fence! They're just different flavors of grass!!! For me, Cathay would be perfect if I had retirement medical benefits, a "train to proficiency" culture, and the shield of the Railway Labor Act. But at Continental you won't have the opportunity to have a crack at command on a 747 after a couple of years, either...
Good luck making your decision!
On leaving Continental for Cathay
Mark Skid:
Take Milly's comment for what it's worth. If you're offered a DEFO job on the passenger fleet, take it. I haven't heard of any offerings for North American passenger DEFO's, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It pays a lot more (at least until the conditions of service change. The last effort to try to "align" the conditions of service for passenger/freighter pilots didn't work out too well. The pilot group wisely rejected it, recognizing it for what it was - a shafting for the new guys AND the current SO's.). I disagree with Milly that passenger F/O is a better job. If I could have passenger pay for flying the freighter, THAT would be the best of both worlds in my view.
Having said that, here's my reply:
Take a lot of the negativity re: Cathay with a grain of salt. While (that's "whilst" for the Queen's subjects reading this post, hehehe) there is some truth to the negative comments, the conditions here are not at all as negative as some would have you believe.
For my part, I'm very happy here.
Most Americans who have joined Cathay in the last couple of years are airline refugees. Of those refugees, some plan to return to their old jobs when recalled, some are trying to get hired by UPS/FedEx, and some hope to make Cathay their long-term home. As an aside, it appears that lately the pool of high-time oldster refugees is drying up, and Cathay has begun fishing in the regional pilot pool.
Cathay is NOT for everybody. I should repeat that: Cathay is NOT for everybody!! From my perspective, the key to success is to try mightily to just "fit in". That means simply recognizing that Mister Swire owns all of the toys in the toybox, and has the right to tell you EXACTLY how to play with them. And if you play with Mister Swire's toys EXACTLY as you're told, everything will be fine. However, if you don't, your shortcomings will most likely be brought to your attention with varying degrees of diplomacy. Rather than thinking about what an undiplomatic dick the guy next to you is, it's probably best just to focus on eliminating your errors. It'll make your next sim ride easier anyway.
The bottom line analysis needs to focus on at least 4 issues: money, benefits, quality of life, and job security.
1. Money: The money might be a "wash". If you get on a widebody at Continental early, you might even make more money over a career. The uncertainty of WHEN you will upgrade to captain at Cathay makes the determination of career earnings a little tricky.
2. Benefits: The medical benefits are fantastic (at least while you're working). (Oddly, however, pap smears, breast exams, and vasectomies are not covered.) There is no dental coverage. And perhaps most importantly (at least to an old guy like me), there is no medical coverage for retirees. This might be because most CX pilots have some form of national health coverage available in retirement. I'm just speculating on this point, because I can't imagine why else this would be the case. The 15.5% Provident Fund kicker (whether you take it in cash, or in the Provident Fund) isn't bad either.
3. Quality of life: As a freighter F/O I have a TON of time off. Plus vacation. But quality of life includes the quality of your work life. The quality of my life in the cockpit is very, very good. I enjoy virtually all of the crewmembers I fly with (whether they are diplomatic or not. Most are, by the way.) The training environment is another story, perhaps. I've come to realize that the problems with the training at Cathay are mostly systemic - that is, Cathay "training" culture is really just checking - but this is made MUCH worse as we pay attention to the whining of our colleagues. While in training, your colleagues are your WORST enemies. Without the infectious stress they spew around, "training" here would be much easier.
4. Job security: This is a bit of an irony: Cathay is probably one of the most financially secure airlines in the world. And they're determined to remain that way. So from that standpoint, this is a VERY secure job.
However, the company can "sack" you at any time, for any reason. You'll get 3 months severance (after you've been here a year), and you'll get shown the door. Period. Having said that, Cathay is in the business of running an airline, not terrorizing its employees. So from my perspective, they would only fire a pilot for cause.
Now, before the other ppruners jump on my face, I suppose I should make the obligatory mention of the 49'ers. I've flown with 3 freighter 49'er captains - all magnificent chaps, by the way. And I'm convinced that these were good men, and good employees. Not flawless employees, but certainly not the sort of persons deserving of summary dismissal. They were, in my view, "collateral damage" in a pissing contest between the company and the AOA. In any event, the one thing you have at Continental that we do NOT have at Cathay is the Railway Labor Act. There is enormous protection for airline employees under the RLA. If you're not familiar with it, you should be. The RLA, in combination with your contract, almost make termination from a U.S. airline impossible.
None of this directly answers the question of whether you should leave Continental for Cathay. Part of the calculus that's missing here is personal to you: How old are you? What's your experience level? How willing are you to just "fit in"? - (which for me, requires LOTS of continuous study - something I'm not used to doing for my flying job. This, by the way, is partially necessitated by the small amount of work I'm required to do each month. It's easy to forget even normal procedures when you only perform them a few times each month.) Are you interested in living in Hong Kong? (Not a requirement, as far as I'm concerned. From where I sit, it appears you could stay on a U.S. basing your entire career, but HK is where the real money is.)
If I were in your situation, it would be a difficult choice for me. Having been on both sides of the question, the grass is greener on both sides of the fence! They're just different flavors of grass!!! For me, Cathay would be perfect if I had retirement medical benefits, a "train to proficiency" culture, and the shield of the Railway Labor Act. But at Continental you won't have the opportunity to have a crack at command on a 747 after a couple of years, either...
Good luck making your decision!
Little Bubba
Current title:
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 151
AV80R,
I think you are right on that one... But the health insurance we have in the States is awesome, PPO!!!, no co-pay, no deductable, complete coverage for you and your family at zero cost to you!!! Also, the coverage is world wide so if you want to see a doctor in Somalia, you can if you so desire...
I think you are right on that one... But the health insurance we have in the States is awesome, PPO!!!, no co-pay, no deductable, complete coverage for you and your family at zero cost to you!!! Also, the coverage is world wide so if you want to see a doctor in Somalia, you can if you so desire...
thepotato232
Tuberriffic
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2007
- Posts
- 202
i'mbatman
Thunderbiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2002
- Posts
- 318
Ha ha will do. I'll hopefully have lots of positive things to say......4 months to go and getting ready to drink the koolaid.
ACT700
What's it doing now?
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2004
- Posts
- 280
That's hilarious!
Anyway, if you believe everything you read here or on pprune, then you probably shouldn't be in this business.
My wife is right-pilots are the biggest whiners.
Oh, sorry, got to go. Somebody just walked in; and there is nothing like whining to a real person.
i'mbatman
Thunderbiiiiiiiiiiiiiiird
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2002
- Posts
- 318
CX only has 'home based' pilots if you happen to live in NYC, LAX, ANC, ORD, ATL, or DFW. If you don't live in those cities, you commute. It isn't 'home basing', its just domiciles outside of HK.
boxjockey
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2003
- Posts
- 446
Av80R,
I'm not sure why you have so much dislike for CX. Have you been employed there before? Are you employed here now? I don't read many of your posts, so I don't know. I have been here six months, so not very long at all. I have encountered a total two people with anything negative to say about me being an american. I just smiled and laughed and it was over in an instant. I have received all positive ERAS scores, and all of the check and trainers, save one, have been very good to fly with. I think you judging CX from pprune is a huge mistake. Just as was said before by bubba, there are about 10 handles on there always saying the same tired things. That is .5% of the pilot group. I don't think that constitutes a majority, does it? This place doesn't work for some people, I agree. I think if you leave CX at the airport, and enjoy your 20 days off per month, then it is a fantastic place to work. It's all about the right attitude and knowing how to read people. Everyone has something that makes them happy, you just have to figure out what. I have flown with two of the most notorious checkers on my fleet, and both gave me very good reports. There are many problems with this company, but if you approach it the right way, it offers far more in my mind than most other carriers. It works for me, and works for many others. I hope more americans consider it here, we sure need the pilots!
box
I'm not sure why you have so much dislike for CX. Have you been employed there before? Are you employed here now? I don't read many of your posts, so I don't know. I have been here six months, so not very long at all. I have encountered a total two people with anything negative to say about me being an american. I just smiled and laughed and it was over in an instant. I have received all positive ERAS scores, and all of the check and trainers, save one, have been very good to fly with. I think you judging CX from pprune is a huge mistake. Just as was said before by bubba, there are about 10 handles on there always saying the same tired things. That is .5% of the pilot group. I don't think that constitutes a majority, does it? This place doesn't work for some people, I agree. I think if you leave CX at the airport, and enjoy your 20 days off per month, then it is a fantastic place to work. It's all about the right attitude and knowing how to read people. Everyone has something that makes them happy, you just have to figure out what. I have flown with two of the most notorious checkers on my fleet, and both gave me very good reports. There are many problems with this company, but if you approach it the right way, it offers far more in my mind than most other carriers. It works for me, and works for many others. I hope more americans consider it here, we sure need the pilots!
box
I'm not sure why you have so much dislike for CX. Have you been employed there before? Are you employed here now?
Boxjockey,
I didn’t think I “disliked” Cathay but I reread my posts and realize some of them do sound negative toward your company. That was not my intention so I’ll refrain from doing so in the future. All my posts are based on 2 ex-Cathay pilots’ description of their stints there (4+ and 2+ years). Both liked the equipment there, the hotels, the benefits, etc. However, they both felt the management was very much anti-American and they made it show in their training department which is why so many people leave even after many years. That being said, I realize they might have been the only 2 pilots there who felt that way. So, I will refrain from picking on your company, however I do reserve the right to occasionally make fun of the British dentistry, etc.
Peace out.
Boxjockey,
I didn’t think I “disliked” Cathay but I reread my posts and realize some of them do sound negative toward your company. That was not my intention so I’ll refrain from doing so in the future. All my posts are based on 2 ex-Cathay pilots’ description of their stints there (4+ and 2+ years). Both liked the equipment there, the hotels, the benefits, etc. However, they both felt the management was very much anti-American and they made it show in their training department which is why so many people leave even after many years. That being said, I realize they might have been the only 2 pilots there who felt that way. So, I will refrain from picking on your company, however I do reserve the right to occasionally make fun of the British dentistry, etc.
Peace out.
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