Cathay Pacific

[Lear70]

Interesting... could you post the pax pay YOS 1-max for both seats? I still have yet to see that scale anywhere...

p.s. Why do you say "this could be changing for new joiners..."?

 

[GogglesPisano]

So it seems as though if you are hired as a cargo FO and can upgrade at 3.5 years, there is really no incentive to go the pax side.

What is a typical Zed fare for a transcon in the US?

Any rumours of jumpseats in the future?

 

[RP 04]

I'm too lazy to type up the whole payscale for pax US bases, but after 3 years on the freighters you would be guranteed 128 K/year (plus the 15%), 6 weeks of vacation, the best medical insurance for you and your family, I dare to say, in whole industry (zero deductible and/or co-pay, plus you can pick your own doctors).

The months you are working you fly 3 trips to HKG/month, unless you have a PC (twice a year for both CA's and FO's), then you only do 2 in those months. Each trip is around 3-4 days away from home

Current upgrade time on pax fleet is right at 9 years

US based Captains top out around 220k/year

 

[RP 04]

Transcon ZED fare just went up to $53.20...

Lear 70,

I wouldn't leave Airtran for CX, but since I'm already here, I wouldn'rt leave CX to go to Airtran. Hopefully that sums it up for you...

 

[VVJM265]

Think I saw on pprune that DAL is also open now. Someone care to confirm please? Thanks.

 

[ERJdca]

Just what's posted on airlinepilotcentral.com, here's how it breaks down, based on a 90 hour average credit at airTran (that's what most people pull down flying about 85 hours a month from what I've been told):

Year/Position - - AirTran - - Cathay

1st Yr F/O - - - $46,440 - - $63,480 (plus $17,040 Cathay)
2nd Yr F/O - - - $60,480 - - $69,480 (plus $9,000 Cathay)
3rd Yr F/O - - - $65,880 - - $74,580 (plus $9,600 Cathay)
4th Yr - - - CA $120,960 - F/O $81,000 (plus $39,960 AirTran)
5th Yr - - - CA $129,600 - CA $134,280 (plus $4,680 Cathay)
10th Yr - - CA $155,520 - CA $157,440 (plus $1,920 Cathay)
Max - - - - CA $165,240 - CA $160,560 (plus $4,680 AIR TRAN)

Of course, not everyone will credit 90 hours, but most reserve pilots are crediting around 100-105 hours if they want to (and still hold 14 days off) and most line holders seem to be right around 80-85 hours of block, 85-90 hours of credit with 16-18 days off (those soft credits for work rules are NICE).

Lear70,

Doing a quick scan of the numbers on the website you stated im not quite sure if thats completely accurate. As you stated, you are assuming 90hrs credit. To be honest i would be more concerned with Guarantee then picking a number. CX is guaranteed 84hrs (CA/161K) as opposed to airtrans 70hrs (CA/128K). Now im sure not everyone see's as low as 70 but its something to think about. Secondly if airtran were to guarantee 84hrs im showing 154K Max as opposed to 161K at CX. That CX pay scale is the freighter pay scale which is much lower then the PAX fleet. CX also pays anything above 84 hours as 1.5 and anything over 91hrs (i believe) as double time. As stated above cathay will pay out your 15.5% on a basing bringing that to 185K. Again, thats just basic pay at CX. Not including duty pay/allowances/housing allowances (HKG)/qualification pay/13 month pay/profit share (lets not go there) and a few more i might be forgetting.

I dont have a pax pay scale in front of me, but what someone posted above as being the top basic pay sounds about right. The company is currently in talks with the AOA regarding the hiring of DEFO's into the Pax fleet. Personally i think they have quite a bit to iron out before anything is truly proposed.

Take care!

 

[center]

ERJdca,

We have already advertised for DEFO pax fleet via an agency. This will happen sooner than later, and pax guys on basings will be taking pay cuts. As well, I do not think upgrade to Command will be 9 years for new joiners by my numbers, it most likely will be longer. Though probably still shorter than any US major carriers. I do not know anything about Air Tran, but if I were somewhere like FedEx, I would definately not leave to come hear. Cathay is a good job, but not fantastic as it once was. Conditions will continue to change. Just wait untill our proposed menage a trois merger is completed....I can't wait

Cheers,

 

[vtwin]

So it seems as though if you are hired as a cargo FO and can upgrade at 3.5 years, there is really no incentive to go the pax side.


Yes there is. Avoiding the command course drama too early in your CX experience and the busy roster that comes with North American freighter command.

 

[vtwin]

Think I saw on pprune that DAL is also open now. Someone care to confirm please? Thanks.

We fly ANC-DFW-ATL.

JFK,ATL,ANC,LAX and SFO are all USA current bases.

No one is getting ORD anymore as far as I know. I expect there will be more expansion and new bases just ahead.

 

[Lear70]

Doing a quick scan of the numbers on the website you stated im not quite sure if thats completely accurate. As you stated, you are assuming 90hrs credit. To be honest i would be more concerned with Guarantee then picking a number.

Well, that all depends on whether you drop trips down to guarantee in order to get more days off.

I think the problem is that many pilots who are not at regionals or LCC's don't understand the way our companies build pairings. I'll see if I can do this quick and not take up too much space.

A company saves a LOT of non-payroll expenses by limiting how many employees they have on property. Therefore they build monthly lines to bid based on the premise of FLYING 1000 hours in a year, or about 85 hours a month. That means that the MAJORITY of pilots will end up with an 85 hour line, give or take 5 hours.

NO lines are ever built to guarantee; it's just too inefficient a use of the pilot and our daily pilot utilization is around 6 hours, as is SWA, JB, and about all the regionals.

Almost EVERY pilot here makes on average 5-7% in extra pay just because of the pay rigs we have.

Last year I credited over 1,200 hours of pay. Crediting 90 hours of pay on 85 hours of flying is the norm here, not the exception; that's why I feel comfortable using it for comparison, because I KNOW I can consisitently do this for the rest of my career. Heck, we have pilots here who live in ATL who ALWAYS bid reserve and credit over 100 hours a month CONSISTENTLY and are home 20 nights a month with 14 days off.

Secondly if airtran were to guarantee 84hrs im showing 154K Max as opposed to 161K at CX.

Again, that's 84 hours of FLYING, not pay. Pay is ALWAYS more when you have soft credits working for you.

That CX pay scale is the freighter pay scale which is much lower then the PAX fleet. CX also pays anything above 84 hours as 1.5 and anything over 91hrs (i believe) as double time.

That's the big mystery, the pax fleet, how you get there, when you can get there, what it pays, how long to upgrade, how the QOL is, etc. The freight stuff we've heard about... Wish there were more destinations on the freight side, too. Seems like you'd get burnt out flying the same route over and over again?

As stated above cathay will pay out your 15.5% on a basing bringing that to 185K.

Who would do this? No offense, but who would choose to pay out 15.5% when you're in one of the highest tax brackets this country has (over $100k gets expensive in taxes). That's why I don't include our B fund; an intelligent person would leave it invested and take it out when you retire at a much lower tax rate.

Again, thats just basic pay at CX. Not including duty pay/allowances/housing allowances (HKG)/qualification pay/13 month pay/profit share (lets not go there) and a few more i might be forgetting.

Profit sharing? Sure, let's go there... Haven't heard you were doing that either.

I dont have a pax pay scale in front of me, but what someone posted above as being the top basic pay sounds about right. The company is currently in talks with the AOA regarding the hiring of DEFO's into the Pax fleet. Personally i think they have quite a bit to iron out before anything is truly proposed.

That's the only part of Cathay that sounds really interesting to me to be quite honest (which is why I ask about it). Taking a pax f/o at $128k at year 3 and flying all over the world sounds like a good way to make some coin. Do U.S. based pax pilots fly to different countries (Europe, Australia, South America) or just back and forth to HKG?

I also noticed I made an error in my rates. I forgot that Cathay pilots drop BACK to year 1 pay when they upgrade to CA.

So...

1st Yr F/O - - - $46,440 - - $63,480 - (plus $17,040 Cathay)
2nd Yr F/O - - - $60,480 - - $69,480 - (plus $9,000 Cathay)
3rd Yr F/O - - - $65,880 - - $74,580 - (plus $9,600 Cathay)
4th Yr - - - CA $120,960 - F/O $81,000 - (plus $39,960 AirTran)
5th Yr - - - CA $129,600 - 1st yr CA $123,960 - (plus $5,640 AirTran)
10th Yr - - CA $155,520 - 6th yr CA $145,440 (plus $10,080 AirTran)
Max - - - - CA $165,240 - CA $160,560 (plus $4,680 AirTran)

Like you said, that's if you stay on the freighter side. If you go to the pax side, all those numbers are useless, as I don't know the scale. Even so, it looks like a 24 year progression to get to max pax CA scale at Cathay? 3 years freighter F/O, 10 years pax F/O, then 11 years to max CA pay? Did I miss something?

 

[Lear70]

I'm too lazy to type up the whole payscale for pax US bases,

Oh come on,,, throw us a bone! Maybe just the 1st 5 years of pax F/O pay (do you drop back to year 1 like you do on upgrade?) and max, then the first 5 years on CA pay and max? Pretty please?

but after 3 years on the freighters you would be guranteed 128 K/year (plus the 15%), 6 weeks of vacation, the best medical insurance for you and your family, I dare to say, in whole industry (zero deductible and/or co-pay, plus you can pick your own doctors).

That's pretty sweet, can't argue that. Excellent medical bennies!

The months you are working you fly 3 trips to HKG/month, unless you have a PC (twice a year for both CA's and FO's), then you only do 2 in those months. Each trip is around 3-4 days away from home

Do you go other places once you get to HKG or just back and forth to the U.S.?

Thanx again for all the questions and answers! I love unraveling a good mystery.

 

[majordavid]

Heard a rumor that the income you recieve as a freight guy based in the us is non taxable. Can anyone verify. Thanks

 

[fareview]

Heard a rumor that the income you recieve as a freight guy based in the us is non taxable. Can anyone verify. Thanks

I can verify that that is incorrect.

fv

 

[vtwin]

Heard a rumor that the income you recieve as a freight guy based in the us is non taxable. Can anyone verify. Thanks

You no longer pay FICA. You are working for a foreign company operating a foreign registered vessel.

They withold federal but estimated state is paid quarterly by me. CX will not withold state income tax.

I am speaking as a US citizen living here so I am
playing it straight up. I don't know what other guys manage to pull off, I want to sleep well at night.

 

[vtwin]

Do you go other places once you get to HKG or just back and forth to the U.S.?

HKG thats it, maybe Shemya if your on fire.....

You fly all over Asia out of HKG during training on the pax fleet which last 3.5 to 5 mos.

Some patterns never leave North America now which translates into more days at work. Maybe we will start going to Europe out of JFK someday. Maybe not.

 

[ERJFO]

Quick quesiton, how can one convert their ATP to an ICAO ATPL for CX requirements??? Thank you.

 

[Fit59]

You get hired by CX and they convert the license for you (after you complete the paperwork and take the tests)

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave Benjamin,

Quality of life better at a regional? I dont quite see how thats possible? Upgrades not in seniority order? As far as i know they are on the PAX fleet, you just have to actually be competent enough to get one. Its not JUST a number. The job isn't for everyone but being at a company that does very well and has been very stable is whats most important to me. The long haul doesn't bother me.

I'm just relaying what I heard from someone who has been flying the line at CX for a couple of years. QOL is different things for different people. If I can get away with only being away from home 5 or 6 nights out of the month and not having to commute I consider that decent QOL. A single guy with no kids might look at what I do and think it's pretty boring. The guy I know at CX went from being a regional captain probably averaging about 15 days a month off and a short commute to the world of long haul flying. It's not for everyone.

I don't think anyone knows how they will respond to long haul flying until they actually do it.

 

[VVJM265]

We fly ANC-DFW-ATL.

JFK,ATL,ANC,LAX and SFO are all USA current bases.

No one is getting ORD anymore as far as I know. I expect there will be more expansion and new bases just ahead.

Thanks.

As for long haul...5.3 LIRN-LERT across the med in a Metroliner, now that's long haul! :laugh: At least in the P-3 you could actually standup all the way or hit the rack for awhile. And a bad day flying anything always beats a great day at the office!

 

[RP 04]

Long haul is not bad, at least you get to sleep half of the flight (in a bunk, with sheets and real pillows)...

 

[GogglesPisano]

I've done everything from 6 legs a day in a D328J out of CVG to 14-hr legs in an MD11 (and trans-cons in an A319.) The widebody int'l flying is in a class all it's own. 30 hour layovers in 4-star hotels in some of the world's great cities, sampling food from around the world. It is a life experience most pilots will never enjoy.

Take it while the opportunity exists.

 

[ERJdca]

Who would do this? No offense, but who would choose to pay out 15.5% when you're in one of the highest tax brackets this country has (over $100k gets expensive in taxes). That's why I don't include our B fund; an intelligent person would leave it invested and take it out when you retire at a much lower tax rate.

Intelligence is not the issue. IF your on a basing i believe your 15.5% is taxed so instead of reinvesting it in the P-Fund guys take the cash and do their own investing.

I completely understand how you are scheduled. Of course its a savings to the company to have a more productive pilot group, im just not familiar with airtran's contract and credits. Thr block hours I have seen are around 65-70 credited to 84, this month im way over that and so the 1.5 kicks in. My point was comparing guaranteed pay. I have been paid over my guarentee plenty but i dont count on it. My comment was based on the information you put up. 84hrs pay is the minimum we see. If that is the norm at Airtran than thats great!

As far as the drop back in pay, you are correct, 1st year B Scale Capt pay on the pax fleet in HKG is around the 170K-180K range and continues up from what i remember. I'll see if i can find a scale for you.

 

[ERJdca]

I'm just relaying what I heard from someone who has been flying the line at CX for a couple of years. QOL is different things for different people. If I can get away with only being away from home 5 or 6 nights out of the month and not having to commute I consider that decent QOL. A single guy with no kids might look at what I do and think it's pretty boring. The guy I know at CX went from being a regional captain probably averaging about 15 days a month off and a short commute to the world of long haul flying. It's not for everyone.

I don't think anyone knows how they will respond to long haul flying until they actually do it.

Completely agree its not for everyone. I too came from the left seat of a regional jet and a short commute.

 

[Lear70]

Intelligence is not the issue. IF your on a basing i believe your 15.5% is taxed so instead of reinvesting it in the P-Fund guys take the cash and do their own investing.

If that's the case, I can understand COMPLETELY if guys take their cash if it's taxed. Taxing a 401k at your CURRENT tax level? Oh that sucks! That defeats half the benefit of even HAVING a 401k and reduces its true percentage of benefit down by about 20% to around 12.4%.

The real dinger is how do they figure your taxes when you take it out IF you were to leave it invested until retirement? If you started drawing out a certain monthly amount, how would the federal government be able to figure out how much you were withdrawing had already been taxed 20 years ago when it was paid into your 401k (at the then-higher rate) versus how much of each month you draw out is investment income?

The block hours I have seen are around 65-70 credited to 84, this month im way over that and so the 1.5 kicks in. My point was comparing guaranteed pay. I have been paid over my guarentee plenty but i dont count on it. My comment was based on the information you put up. 84hrs pay is the minimum we see. If that is the norm at Airtran than thats great!

Most domestic carriers have gone to that kind of average, it's just simple math with as few employees as humanly possible.

As far as the drop back in pay, you are correct, 1st year B Scale Capt pay on the pax fleet in HKG is around the 170K-180K range and continues up from what i remember. I'll see if i can find a scale for you.

That would be great, more for future reference benefit for others looking at Cathay than anything else. I think this thread will be GREAT for future reference; just about everything you need to know about going to work there has been covered, thanks!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Airinepilotcentral only shows the Freighter payscales. Dows anyone have access to the pax payscales after year 3? Roughly how much greater are they: 10% 20% ??

 

[VVJM265]

Couple of quick questions for any of the US guys at CX:

1. Does CX offer any dental plans?
2. Can you elaborate on their 401K? Can you roll over money in an existing 401K (or the military TSP)?
3. Regarding the discussion above concerning upgrade; can you fly as FO on frieghters for 3-4 yrs, then FO on pax in HK for 2 yrs or so and then come back to CAPT on frieghters in the states?

Thanks in advance,
265

 

[vtwin]

Couple of quick questions for any of the US guys at CX:

1. Does CX offer any dental plans?
2. Can you elaborate on their 401K? Can you roll over money in an existing 401K (or the military TSP)?
3. Regarding the discussion above concerning upgrade; can you fly as FO on frieghters for 3-4 yrs, then FO on pax in HK for 2 yrs or so and then come back to CAPT on frieghters in the states?

Thanks in advance,
265

1. No dental. 100% medical. No family or individual contribution. No copays
on office visits or on prescription drugs. You can go anywhere you want, no network/managed care nonsense. So this savings should offsets your dental costs. Best medical plan I have ever been in.

2. Don't know about the rollover since I am not participating in it.

3. Yes you can.

 

[VVJM265]

vtwin,
Thanks. Maybe bjammin or one of the other guys has the answer on the 401K plan.
r,
265

 

[Lear70]

Your best bet if you leave your job and have money in your 401k is to roll it over into a self-directed Roth IRA.

Talk to your tax advisor or call up any of the major shops that handle investments and they can tell you all about it...

 

[VVJM265]

Lear 70,

Thanks. Unfortunately you can't roll the TSP (military "401K" plan) into a Roth; only into a traditional IRA or a company 401K, 403a or b, or 457b. Was really trying to ascertain how Cathay's plan worked under the US rules and if any ex military guys have used their plan and rolled over the TSP.

r,
265