Carnahan family gets 4 million...

[100LL... Again!]

90 % of lawyers are lower than scum.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I think the problem isn't "activist judges" so much as the way judges from both parties have been handling themselves.

Basically, the walk of shame for a judge is to have a case overturned, so what judge is going to disallow these frivolous lawsuits? Only the ones who are absolutely, positively sure that there is NO CAUSE for the case. The problem is, enough truly wacky cases (the hot coffee case comes to mind--EVERYBODY in town knows how big a bump that is coming out of that MickyDees onto Tramway Blvd, but that somehow ended up in court).

I think that our judges really do need to regulate a bit more. As it stands, judges from both parties are letting stuff go because they're too worried about what someone above them might think. They're judges, thier job is to pass judgement!

I'll agree that there are some really, really sleazy lawyers out there, but it's just thier jobs to argue the cases (of course, it's not thier job to manufacture ambulance-chasing claims either)--the judges need to grow some balls.

Look at that! I've exceeded my daily soapbox allowment!

Dan

 

[Timebuilder]

This is a good time to point out that most jets have an electric AI. Hard IFR in a piston twin might suggests to me that the electric AI might be one of the best accessory investments a pilot can make.

The question on appeal would be "were the vacumm pumps of a quality or longevity that departed signifigantly from other typical pumps, or were these pumps brand new or sufficiently new, so as to suggest an expected level of serviceability?"

 

[mizzouguy]

It was a Cessna 335 ( a non pressurized 340) and the weather was absolutley horrendous. The NTSB ruled it as pilot error. She also got a bunch of money from Cessna and sued a lot of other people over it. I heard Cessna was appealling the decision. We sure are glad she is no our senator any more

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I think that is not the trial lawyers but the idiot juries that are to blame...period.

Good point. I also think the fact that we have a justice system that entertains questionable lawsuits which compounds the problem. The brethren take care of each other. The judges stay employed, the lawyers defending their client stay employed, and of course the beloved and noble trial lawyers who only want justice.

Actually, the system itself probably is OK. Just have an abundance of dishonorable people, or scumbags if you prefer, who are in power within the system.

 

[jetexas]

"Jury striking" is also a ridiculous element of our justice system. If you have any knowledge of aviation..ie RC pilot, etc. you will be "struck" from a jury in cases such as this. This is not trial by a jury of your peers, it is cherry picking.

The madness which has become our judical trial system must be amended. We are all paying for its runaway lunacy. Rampant lawsuits are bad for the country in every respect. They make everyone scared of each other and ruin the fun in being free. All in the name of greed.

 

[shroomwell]

I just want to say that I hold convicted felon's in prison in a higher regard than Trial Lawyers. And, God Help us all if John Edwards becomes president.

We in America like to think we a so much better than the rest of the world and you could say we are in many respects. However Europeans and Canadians alike think are civil justice system is a joke and laugh at us. The sad thing is that the overwhelming majority of Americans agree. It is just that there are to many special interests in government, it is minority rule. Something needs to be done, I fear that America will no longer be the great country it used to be if the Trial Lawyer and their cohorts keep up their greed.

 

[labbats]

The problem lies in the lack of accountability.

If someone sues someone for something ridiculous and loses, there is no penalty. I suggest a 10% fine for any lawsuit should you lose. That would remove these exorbitant sums and people looking for a handout.

 

[Flyin' South]

Being an aviation defense lawyer, I am not naturally sympathetic to plaintiffs' lawyers. However, it is nonsense to argue that a reasonable jury could not find Parker Hannifin liable for a vacuum pump failure because the NTSB investigation did not find a problem with the vacuum pumps. The jury is prohibited by Federal statute from being told of the NTSB's conclusions. Congress has decided that NTSB Reports should not be admitted in civil litigation because the NTSB would be hounded and lobbied by representatives of both sides during its investigation, which is supposed to be impartial and result in safety improvements, not damage awards.

I did not closely follow the Carnahan trial and have no idea if the plaintiffs' proof of vacuum pump problems was persuasive, but neither did most of you. Therefore, the venomous attacks on plaintiffs' lawyers concerning the result in this particular case, are not warranted.

 

[dpilot_citation]

Attorney's

Do you no what you have with an attorney buried up to his nose in sand?

Not enough Sand!

Some of my best friends are attorneys (really).

As my wife says there is truth in humor.

Next...Maybe we need to start a post on attorney jokes.

 

[SATCFI]

A Triumph Of Emotion Over Evidence
The aviation world was dealt several tough blows last week as a CBS News report relied on hysteria and half-truths to publicize a non-existent danger, while a St. Louis jury penalized an airframe supplier (Parker-Hannifin) for having it's equipment on board an aircraft that crashed in a tragic spatial disorientation accident.

We've said as much as we need to, for the moment, on CBS' lackluster journalistic standards, but the Parker-Hannifin case really needs to be examined, carefully and objectively. The fact of the matter is that this case should never have been allowed to go to trial. The evidence simply did not support the case. Period.

In various criminal/legal endeavors, Judges and Lawyers are required to show that facts/evidence back up the decisions made in court... but the same such concepts often do not apply to civil matters... where emotion often over-rules reason, and "Don't bother us with the facts, our jury's made it's mind up" attitudes rule the day.

The suit was filed after a popular Governor, his son (the pilot), and a staffer were killed in a Cessna 335 that went down in IFR conditions after experiencing some interruption in attitude guidance from one attitude reference... while others were apparently still working.

An exhaustive NTSB report found that the accident was not caused by vacuum pump failure, as alleged by the attorneys suing Parker-Hannifin on behalf of the surviving family members... one of whom ascended to a position in Congress upon the death of her husband (the Governor, who was elected to Congress posthumously) in the accident. The accident was caused when one (but not all) attitude references (an attitude indicator, not manufactured by P-H) failed and the pilot succumbed to the ravages of spatial disorientation while attempting to use other references in bad weather and turbulent conditions. It was a tough scenario, but it was survivable. Ultimately, errors not equipment, brought the bird down... period.

That's what the facts say.

The pilot even admitted (to ATC) that he had other attitude references when he stated that he had lost one. The NTSB Report clearly stated that, "The pilot indicated to ATC several times that he was having problems with the airplane's primary attitude indicator. He also told ATC that he was trying to use the right-side attitude indicator, which indicates that the airplane did not experience a total vacuum system failure. Examination of the wreckage revealed rotational marks in the left and right engine vacuum pumps, which indicates that they were most likely functioning at the time of impact. Further, one of the vacuum gage system failure indicator buttons exhibited evidence of having been in almost the fully retracted position (the other indicator button was found in the partially retracted position), which indicates that adequate vacuum existed for the airplane's instruments to operate."



OK... an AI goes out, but another is working, AND there are other attitude references available, and, YES, the vacuum pumps were WORKING. The NTSB eventually rules the accident to have been caused by "...the pilot's failure to control the airplane while maneuvering because of spatial disorientation. Contributing to the accident were the failure of the airplane's primary attitude indicator and the adverse weather conditions, including turbulence." It doesn't get more clear-cut than this... from the most expert aviation investigative organization in the world -- who still filed this factual report despite the probable specter of political pressure from the family and, specifically, the former Congressperson widowed by this accident.

The trial was questionable in both result, as well as practice... presided over by a judge appointed by one of the deceased, and where experts with extensive experience on the subject of vacuum pumps were denied a chance to impart their knowledge, while others with little more than an emotional impact had their say. The conduct of the trial sure seems to suggest a bias for the foes of P-H and a disregard for the rules of evidence.

Worse, though, is this, when all is said and done; Parker-Hannifin's insurers will pay out nearly 3 million dollars (the award is somewhat discounted by sums already received by others named in the action), the prices for aviation hardware will increase as a result, and high-tech businesses will continue to shy away (or more accurately, run like hell) from GA equipment production (we've lost hundreds of suppliers over the years for fear of litigation)... leaving us with few remaining, but necessarily costly, suppliers to work with. Sadly; there is no percentage in appealing this verdict, no matter how aggressively the facts might support an appeal. P-H CAN'T appeal the verdict because it would invite a cross appeal from the family, who originally tried to get $100 Million. The uncontested $2.8 Million penalty for Parker leaves the deceased's family with no recourse to get more money.

The scariest part of this? This is actually a "win" for Parker-Hannifin... who would probably pay nearly as much on appeal, regardless, to fight the verdict. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed, if you do, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if you don't; that's Parker-Hannifin's cross to bear.

Finally, though, Parker-Hannifin gets to bear the brunt of millions of people reading about how they "killed" a popular political figure and 2 other people. They have had to silently take unrelenting attacks by a grieving family who has been striking out based on grief, not on fact. The widow even went so far as to state that, "My son (reportedly the pilot-in-command of the flight) was found not responsible for the death of his father in the crash of that plane, and that it was in fact Parker-Hannifin... We wanted to establish that Randy was innocent."

It's hard to dispute the words of a grieving widow... some might say that it's rude and unfeeling, but the facts of the matter as established by the results of an NTSB investigation and not a jury blinded by a famous family dealing with immense grief, is that Pilot Error WAS involved... a single attitude reference failed while others remained active (which should have been used to keep the aircraft under control), and the conditions involved were tough and uncompromising. I fail to see where Parker-Hannifin is at fault, and I fail to see how the family has been vindicated in anything... What I do see is a legal system that gave yet another lawyer a darned-good payday, used emotion to overcome fact and reason, and penalized an entire industry (again) due to the failure of a small group of people (the jury), to have sufficient aviation smarts to see what really happened... a tragic accident that could have been avoided by the use of functioning attitude references and more effective IFR procedures.

Such a tragedy -- both in terms of the price paid by those who lost their lives and the families who loved them... and the industry that will be made to pay for the accident from here on out...

Jim Campbell, ANN Editor-In-Chief

 

[Flyin' South]

That the NTSB said Parker Hannifin wasn't at fault is irrelevant in a court case. The jury would never know what the NTSB said. It's possible that the Carnahan's attorney suceeded in proving to the jury that the vacuum pumps failed. It's also possible that the jury really didn't believe that the vacuum pumps failed but gave a verdict to the Carnahans out of sympathy. The point is that unless we were there to hear the proof, or interviewed the jurors after the trial, it is useless to speculate on the reason for the outcome.

 

[slide33]

Flyin' South

Maybe you have an idea on this.

How many of these, sometimes frivolous, lawsuits that award huge sums of money actually pay out?

After the apeals process and all that, how many really get what you read in the newspaper?

The lack of personal responsibility in this country is truly frightening. Reminds me of the guy I just heard about on radio that's suing the cable company because he's become addicted to cable.

 

[bart]

Therefore, the venomous attacks on plaintiffs' lawyers concerning the result in this particular case, are not warranted

Venomous attacks on plaintiff's lawyers are warranted anytime, anywhere, until such time as change in their behavior warrants a re-evaluation.

They are a special interest that has bought political influence in a big way and are the biggest, shining example of what is wrong with our political system. By and large, plaintiff's lawyers are scumbags, there are precious few exceptions from what I hear, but I have not met any. So I for one will continue attacking them at every opportunity.

 

[Snakum]

If you like this verdict, you love President John Edwards

I'm ashamed to say I voted for this ass-monkey, who after throwing his lot in with a then-popular President Bush in support of military action in Iraq, proceeded to backpedal on national TV when popular opinion had begun swinging the other way. I saw the interview and I was ashamed to be a North Carolinian and a Democrat.

John Edwards will never be President, and he will not be a Senator much longer, either. The people who voted him into the Senate will never forget. Ask a NC Democrat next time you run into one on the road.

His political career is OVER!

Minh

 

[shroomwell]

Being an aviation defense lawyer, I am not naturally sympathetic to plaintiffs' lawyers. However, it is nonsense to argue that a reasonable jury could not find Parker Hannifin liable for a vacuum pump failure because the NTSB investigation did not find a problem with the vacuum pumps. The jury is prohibited by Federal statute from being told of the NTSB's conclusions. Congress has decided that NTSB Reports should not be admitted in civil litigation because the NTSB would be hounded and lobbied by representatives of both sides during its investigation, which is supposed to be impartial and result in safety improvements, not damage awards.

I did not closely follow the Carnahan trial and have no idea if the plaintiffs' proof of vacuum pump problems was persuasive, but neither did most of you. Therefore, the venomous attacks on plaintiffs' lawyers concerning the result in this particular case, are not warranted.

You are a lawyer and that is why you can have this kind of reasoning. "Juries can't know the NTSB findings", well then something needs to change. Sounds like the perfect set up for lawyers. If the factual finding of the NTSB can't be admitted the lawyer can speculate in whatever way they want. There are ways to stop the hounding and lobbying as well. I find that to be a pathetic excuse.

Any reasonable person who reads the NTSB report cannot come to the conclusion that the Pilot was not at error. I don't need to be at trial or read the transcripts to come to my conclusion that the results are B.S.

As a lawyer if you cannot admit that this case is wrong and that the system is broke than you too are part of the problem. Why don't you do society a favor and try to do something about it. You may be a defense lawyer, but the irony is you need the the trail lawyers otherwise you have know one to fight.

 

[U of I Tweak]

eerrrrrrrrr

I wrote a research paper on this subject a couple of years ago for a rhet class. I was amazed at what juries would give people. One man crashed a Grumman Tiger on approach to landing. His engine failed on downwind and he hit trees. They came to the conclusion that he got carb ice. The one that blew me away was a man flying his company's Navajo, somehow lost control, exceeded Vne and the plane broke up. The guy wasn't multi-rated. They settled for 7 million. If anyone's interested in my other cases let me know and I'll see if I still have the paper.

 

[Flying Illini]

Here's what I want to know:
How many of the members of the jury had aviation flight experience, specifically, instrument rated/trained/current.
Probably none b/c the prosecution's lawyer knew that if people with that experience were on the jury, they would find P-H non guilty. It' makes me wonder what the deceased pilot (in this case and others) would say about the lawsuits. Mrs Carnahan needs to grow up. Her sons lack of abilities are what killed her husband, himself, and the aide, nothing else and definitely not P-H.
Here is what doesn't make sense...Years from now, noone will remember her "my son isn't guilty" speech, but when they look up the accident in the NTSB database, it will read "pilot error." How much more proof do you need than that that P-H was NOT at fault? It sounds to me like these highly investigative reports compiled by the NTSB need to be allowed in a court of law...especially when it will save the aviation industy millions of dollars.

 

[Capt. Tex]

The Trial Lawyers are at the very heart of this problem. They are against tort reform because it will mean less money in THEIR pocket. Need I mention that these trial lawyers are the numero uno supporters of the democrats?

100 bucks says the plantiffs are Republicans......

 

[shroomwell]

The ATLA (Trial Lawyers) have the republicans and the democrats in their back pockets. Thats the problem.