Career Flight Instructor's

[superjet]

I was just wondering what keeps the career flight instructors going? Whats better freelancing or regular schools? Hourly rates charged? How do you keep motivated? And finally why didn't you go to a commercial flying job? Any other insight would be great? Thanks in advance!!!

 

[smellthejeta]

I was just wondering what keeps the career flight instructors going? Whats better freelancing or regular schools? Hourly rates charged? How do you keep motivated? And finally why didn't you go to a commercial flying job? Any other insight would be great? Thanks in advance!!!

Superjet,

Provided I can get my medical straightened out, my goal in life for the short term is to become full time ATC and then instruct part time. Keeping motivated? Somebody else pays for the plane, but I get to do what I truly enjoy... When *I* want to fly. Commercial flying job? The career ain't for me (at least not for a long long time). Truth is, if you're paying your way with no spousal or parental support in any form, it's just too much of a long hard road to get the ratings and make the money. Never mind, the money ain't there any more. Putting it differently, you spend way too much time at the bottom of regional payscales, just to get a decent job and get furloughed again.

 

[BRA]

I think a few different reasons create these people. They really love teaching, helping others, and enjoy the instructing. They are possibly making money other ways as well, or are retired from something else. (police, or the service.) Sometimes these people charge a higher rate, and also keep all of that $35 or whatever they charge for themselves.

I've seen some career intructors that i knew would never leave their comfort zone. Some you may see have no CFII, or MEI, and are really just afraid of hard IFR. I have seen this. They would be intimidated to fly freight in a baron. Traffic patterns and stalls are in their comfort zone. They do good work, but will never challenge themelves for something more.

Some people have such a bad record that they could never get through a background check or an interview for a better job.

 

[AAflyer]

SMELLHTEJETA,


Truth is, if you're paying your way with no spousal or parental support in any form, it's just too much of a long hard road to get the ratings and make the money.

Could you please explain what you meant by that.

AA

 

[NYCPilot]

I think BRA's post summed it up nicely.

 

[macfly]

SMELLHTEJETA,


Truth is, if you're paying your way with no spousal or parental support in any form, it's just too much of a long hard road to get the ratings and make the money.

Could you please explain what you meant by that.

AA

I think what he means is to leave professional aviation to the 3rd generation riddle kids. Seriously, I think what he means is that it takes a true passion or insanity(prospective) for flying in order for someone to lay out the cost to obtain an entry level job in the aviation field and without help fianically, it could be monetarily disasterous.

Someone had a nice sig, it said something to the effect of professional aviation = poverty management.

I personally know a lot more guys that had help in aviation then guys that did not. I wonder how many guys on this board are sons of legacy carriers, I bet it would be an interesting percentage.

 

[AAflyer]

Thanks, I was looking at it in a differnt meaning. I agree with your comments. I am not son of a legacy pilot however i had met a lot of people from early years who have helped me in so many ways.

AA

I think I have that passion (insanity) virus..

 

[CutEmUp]

If you like what you are doing and enjoy life, why change?

 

[JediNein]

Why would I want to take a 75% pay cut to go sit in some smelly jet with a bunch of miserable people behind me whining about every little thing? I can get the whining for free on flightinfo.

I'm a career instructor. Right now I'm instructing in new airplanes, although one has lost the new airplane smell at 3 months.

I set my own schedule, which has included my not having to get out of bed until late in the morning, and I'm typically done by sunset. If I encounter someone that doesn't want to pay my rates, I send 'em elsewhere. If they want to pay, but complain the whole time, there are plenty of competitors that would be happy to have the complainer. My client's checks don't bounce and three congratulated me on my last price increase. The corporate head is trying to raise my pay, not get wage concessions while padding his own pocket and funding his golden parachute. I don't have to wonder about the maintenance level. I don't have to sleep with anyone to keep the job. I get to see new and interesting places all the time. The people I work with are some of the nicest and most decent examples of humans on or off this planet. They are intelligent, even the trailer-trash types. I don't get the strip search every time I board the plane to go fly, and the plane is generally faster than any airline, especially considering flight cancellations. I get paid for cancellations on short notice. I get paid for ground stops. If there is flow, I don't care, we can always change our plans.

While I keep my phone on 24/7 as a courtesy to my clients and the mechanics on night shift, my last call after 11 PM was when the mechanics had to ground an airplane until parts became available; and my last call at 3 AM was to go search for a downed plane--because of a volunteer organization where I once belonged.

I've been playing with the latest gizmos for the last few years, specializing in instruction for the latest gizmos. Now I don't even have to worry about vacuum pump failure, my planes don't have them.

On Christmas, I will not be sitting 1 hour reserve at LGA in the middle of a snowstorm that has grounded aviation in the Eastern U.S. I won't be working a rotating split shift with off-sked ops that mean I get a 2 hour break between 14 hour shifts. I get bored on point a to b to c flights if there is not instruction taking place.

I control my own retirement, there are no forced programs that will be bankrupt when I need them the most. I buy my own comfortable clothes, no monkey suits, and no epaulets. I voluntarily completed my last checkride, it wasn't forced on me or just part of the lifestyle.

Bottom line: I think it is the insanity part and a strong aversion to 75% pay cuts that keeps me going on instructing.

 

[smellthejeta]

SMELLHTEJETA,


Truth is, if you're paying your way with no spousal or parental support in any form, it's just too much of a long hard road to get the ratings and make the money.

Could you please explain what you meant by that.

AA

Okay, I'll spell it out:

Cost to obtain flight ratings: $30k-$40k. You have to have some way of paying for that. Presuming you have no college, you're doing what? Making $10/hr as a line guy? Then, you still have to pay for food, rent, a car, and car insurance. The last few cities I've lived in (admittedly, very high cost of living) you're still paying $500-$600/mo with a roommate. Car payment and insurance probably totals $400. Add $200/mo for food, and maybe $100/mo for gas. No we're up to $1200/mo in expenses. Out of that $10/hr you're making as a line guy, you're probably taking home $300 per week. So you're really not making enough money to pay the flight training.

So somehow you manage to get the training paid for. You had a slightly better job or you took out student loans. What did you get? Probably an entry level CFI job paying you $16-$20 per flight hour. Ooops, that's like making $8-$10/hr again. You CFI's for a few years, and now you're in a position to get a 135 freight job, entry level 135 charter job (a jet! oh my!), or first year at a regional. No matter what, you're still making $25k/yr give or take, not much better than being a line guy. Maybe now your car is paid off, but you're trying to start a life, buy a house, or whatever. If you had to take out loans to train, now you're paying those back at abou $200/mo or so.

You just made it to second year pay at the regional, making $35k or so. That's a bit more respectable, but not enough to start a life, buy a house, or support your wife. Now your pay got frozen because the company's fallen on hard times. You got furloughed. Ooops, back to $25k a year at first year pay at another regional. Or maybe you went to Eagle, skipped a furlough, but you're a sixth year FO with no upgrade in sight. You're making, let me guess, $39k/yr and are pretty close to maxing out the pay for FO's. No upgrade in sight means you have to VOLUNTARILY leave to find another job that might give you a crack at PIC time. Pretty soon your car needs replacing, you're paying off your student loans, a car payment, and insurance all over again.

You're doing all of this at such a low rate because you're chasing a job that got "outsourced" back to a regional, hiring guys that are making $20k to start. What's left? I don't know, but last I checked, the most junior pilot at US Airways has a DOH of when I was in kindgergarten, or close to it.

In this climate, I would not want to be at a regional. When your job now depends on your ability (or your company's) to do the job cheaper than somebody else, there will be downward pressure on your wages, with the threat of your job going somewhere else because you can't (or won't) do it cheap enough.

Do I sound down on this business? Damn straight. That's why I'm not flying for a living. I can't go through life worried about the next furlough and paycut, meanwhile making so little money that I cannot afford to live AND save money for that impending job loss or pay cut. Call me whatever you want, but I found an alternate aviation career that pays me $100k/yr with about $3000 worth of college education. That's right, I can buy my own plane.

 

[AAflyer]

Okay, I'll spell it out:

Cost to obtain flight ratings: $30k-$40k. You have to have some way of paying for that. Presuming you have no college, you're doing what? Making $10/hr as a line guy? Then, you still have to pay for food, rent, a car, and car insurance. The last few cities I've lived in (admittedly, very high cost of living) you're still paying $500-$600/mo with a roommate. Car payment and insurance probably totals $400. Add $200/mo for food, and maybe $100/mo for gas. No we're up to $1200/mo in expenses. Out of that $10/hr you're making as a line guy, you're probably taking home $300 per week. So you're really not making enough money to pay the flight training.

So somehow you manage to get the training paid for. You had a slightly better job or you took out student loans. What did you get? Probably an entry level CFI job paying you $16-$20 per flight hour. Ooops, that's like making $8-$10/hr again. You CFI's for a few years, and now you're in a position to get a 135 freight job, entry level 135 charter job (a jet! oh my!), or first year at a regional. No matter what, you're still making $25k/yr give or take, not much better than being a line guy. Maybe now your car is paid off, but you're trying to start a life, buy a house, or whatever. If you had to take out loans to train, now you're paying those back at abou $200/mo or so.

You just made it to second year pay at the regional, making $35k or so. That's a bit more respectable, but not enough to start a life, buy a house, or support your wife. Now your pay got frozen because the company's fallen on hard times. You got furloughed. Ooops, back to $25k a year at first year pay at another regional. Or maybe you went to Eagle, skipped a furlough, but you're a sixth year FO with no upgrade in sight. You're making, let me guess, $39k/yr and are pretty close to maxing out the pay for FO's. No upgrade in sight means you have to VOLUNTARILY leave to find another job that might give you a crack at PIC time. Pretty soon your car needs replacing, you're paying off your student loans, a car payment, and insurance all over again.

You're doing all of this at such a low rate because you're chasing a job that got "outsourced" back to a regional, hiring guys that are making $20k to start. What's left? I don't know, but last I checked, the most junior pilot at US Airways has a DOH of when I was in kindgergarten, or close to it.

In this climate, I would not want to be at a regional. When your job now depends on your ability (or your company's) to do the job cheaper than somebody else, there will be downward pressure on your wages, with the threat of your job going somewhere else because you can't (or won't) do it cheap enough.

Do I sound down on this business? dang straight. That's why I'm not flying for a living. I can't go through life worried about the next furlough and paycut, meanwhile making so little money that I cannot afford to live AND save money for that impending job loss or pay cut. Call me whatever you want, but I found an alternate aviation career that pays me $100k/yr with about $3000 worth of college education. That's right, I can buy my own plane.

Ok, take a deep breath! Where did I call you anything? I was just asking a question, as with so many chat rooms it is hard for us to HEAR the tone in which a question is asked. You had an original comment on spousal support. I did not understand the context in which you used those words. To someone like myself who has been through a divorce I looked at the words a little differently.


Thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant. I agree, these are hard times, and seems to only get worse. Glad you found something that pays great, hopefully you are happy as well. Money can not buy happiness.

Best Wishes,

AA

 

[AAflyer]

Why would I want to take a 75% pay cut to go sit in some smelly jet with a bunch of miserable people behind me whining about every little thing? I can get the whining for free on flightinfo.

I'm a career instructor. Right now I'm instructing in new airplanes, although one has lost the new airplane smell at 3 months.

I set my own schedule, which has included my not having to get out of bed until late in the morning, and I'm typically done by sunset. If I encounter someone that doesn't want to pay my rates, I send 'em elsewhere. If they want to pay, but complain the whole time, there are plenty of competitors that would be happy to have the complainer. My client's checks don't bounce and three congratulated me on my last price increase. The corporate head is trying to raise my pay, not get wage concessions while padding his own pocket and funding his golden parachute. I don't have to wonder about the maintenance level. I don't have to sleep with anyone to keep the job. I get to see new and interesting places all the time. The people I work with are some of the nicest and most decent examples of humans on or off this planet. They are intelligent, even the trailer-trash types. I don't get the strip search every time I board the plane to go fly, and the plane is generally faster than any airline, especially considering flight cancellations. I get paid for cancellations on short notice. I get paid for ground stops. If there is flow, I don't care, we can always change our plans.

While I keep my phone on 24/7 as a courtesy to my clients and the mechanics on night shift, my last call after 11 PM was when the mechanics had to ground an airplane until parts became available; and my last call at 3 AM was to go search for a downed plane--because of a volunteer organization where I once belonged.

I've been playing with the latest gizmos for the last few years, specializing in instruction for the latest gizmos. Now I don't even have to worry about vacuum pump failure, my planes don't have them.

On Christmas, I will not be sitting 1 hour reserve at LGA in the middle of a snowstorm that has grounded aviation in the Eastern U.S. I won't be working a rotating split shift with off-sked ops that mean I get a 2 hour break between 14 hour shifts. I get bored on point a to b to c flights if there is not instruction taking place.

I control my own retirement, there are no forced programs that will be bankrupt when I need them the most. I buy my own comfortable clothes, no monkey suits, and no epaulets. I voluntarily completed my last checkride, it wasn't forced on me or just part of the lifestyle.

Bottom line: I think it is the insanity part and a strong aversion to 75% pay cuts that keeps me going on instructing.

Not sure where you keep getting this 75% paycut from? I guess if you are furloughed it was 100%. Or at SWA it was a payraise. I took an initial 23% but now am back to 15% of my original cut, however it is till a very good income. I also teach on the side as that brings me much enjoyment. You can do both you know.

All pilots (unless you are some how except) will take some type of checkride or bienial review to stay current, as for the forced checkride, not sure why this is so bad. If you are competent, stay updated and take pride in your work, it is nothing but a formality, and usually a time to pick up some things you did not know (always good to continue in bettering one's self).

Yes sitting on reserve in LGA over the holidays would not be great, but if you are a positive person you can usually turn the half empty glass into a half full. I have met wonderful people over the holidays at my own airline and people from other airlines in the same boat. One Xmas found 4 crews from 3 airlines in one room with egg nog (and little help from ron rico) food, music and new found friends.

Another Xmas I was flying, however there are many people that are trying to go somewhere special on that day, and I helped them get there, a simple thanks for flying on the holidays, or watching kids get excited to see their grandparents makes it worthwile. Having flown for the airlines the past 15 years certain holidays do not have to fall on that day, they may be a day before or a day after. As long as your friends and family are present that is what really counts.

I have seen the sun rise over the Atlantic, gone skiing in Zurich, seen all the sights of Paris, sat for the afternoon with friends in a pub in London. Walked through a beautiful cathedral in Argentina, rented a car to Napa on a San Fransico layover. Smoked cigars and drank scotch on the beaches of Puerto Rico.

I have been given the opportunity to fly airplanes i would never be able to afford to even rent. I have made new friends and built a life that I truly enjoy. Are there things to worry about in our business, YES!. However if I worked for Delphi, Enron, WorldComm etc over the past few years I guess I would have been just as worried. I take money and invest in my own retirement like you, however if I can keep some of what I have accumulated in my pension even better. ANYONE regardless of industry relying on only a company funded retirement is not preparing like they could or even should.

Glad you are happy, but so am I.


AA

P.S. I have not had a paycheck bounce, I have not had to sleep with anyone to keep my job ( there was a layover, but what happens on a layover, stays on a layover.) And keeping my phone on 24/7, no thanks. When I am done flying i am done flying. I do not answer crew scheduling on my day off, however I think there has only been 2 times in 8 years that I was asked to fly on my days off. Have I been reassigned, yes. However has a doctor had to stay late for an emergency. Has a lawyer had to stay later in a courtroom when the case should have ended. Has a businessman, or woman had an emergency meeting requiring them to stay late, in all cases most likely. Things like this happen to everyone.

 

[smellthejeta]

Glad you found something that pays great, hopefully you are happy as well. Money can not buy happiness.

Haven't started it yet. Money doesn't buy happiness, but charity doesn't pay the rent either. When you make $20k/yr, it's about as close to charity as it gets... Part of the reason this industry pay so poorly is that if guys will fly for free or close to it, somebody will pay them next to nothing.

 

[AAflyer]

I know, and I could make some statement, or point a finger at a couple airlines, but I would get a rash of crap, and rationalization of WHY. I have advocated ways to avoid this as a mentor, not TELL, but advocate, and educate. I have done union work at a few airlines and still believe a union MUST represent the best interest of it's members not that of the company.

Now for the most part I take care of myself, still stay educated, but plan according to what benefits my children and myself. Is that self serving, probably but I can gurantee there would be long line to do my job at this airline at even half the pay I get now.

Anyway, before i ramble on too much that iswhy I teach on the side, the enjoyment. Once again hope all works out for you, and did not mean to rattle your cage.

AA

 

[smellthejeta]

I know, and I could make some statement, or point a finger at a couple airlines, but I would get a rash of crap, and rationalization of WHY. I have advocated ways to avoid this as a mentor, not TELL, but advocate, and educate. I have done union work at a few airlines and still believe a union MUST represent the best interest of it's members not that of the company.

Now for the most part I take care of myself, still stay educated, but plan according to what benefits my children and myself. Is that self serving, probably but I can gurantee there would be long line to do my job at this airline at even half the pay I get now.

Anyway, before i ramble on too much that iswhy I teach on the side, the enjoyment. Once again hope all works out for you, and did not mean to rattle your cage.

AA

Nah, my cage got rattled when I figured out that I spent $20 grand on my ratings and had another $20 grand to go, right before I realized I was spending all of that to get a job that paid less than I made pumping jet fuel (or, at the time, throwing bags in a cargo pit). I didn't look at your profile before I went off on you, and had I done so, I would have asked who bankrolled your flight training

What gets my goat is everybody who thinks that every job is a timebuilding job. When airlines were getting as big as Comair, ACA, and Eagle, it was inevitable that they would become career jobs for some. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with making $100,000 as a captain on an ERJ/CRJ. I had major props for the Comair guys for trying to stick it to Randy R. back in the day. I was impressed that those guys had both a pair and a clue.

And yes, I believe it is possible to raise pay rates at a regional. I'm doing my part; I'm not working for them. The biggest bargaining power a union has is that they can't find enough people to replace them in the event of a strike. Remove that threat, and your union (and negotiating leverage) has no power.

I'm lucky; doing ATC, we actually have quite a bit of leverage. The government themselves has severely limited the supply pool of controllers. Must be under 31 when hired, must be a US Citizen, must pass a very strict medical and security background check... In this day and age, for most applicants, it takes a friggin two year degree with specific college courses in ATC to get hired (just when you think Aero Sci at Riddle is a waste of a degree). Plus, when there's only 13 colleges in the country where you can get the apprporiate degree, it's not the easiest thing in the world to just go to you local community college (or friendly neighborhood FBO) and work on it "part time." You also can't have a midlife crisis and do this job either. Further, it takes at least a year and sometimes three to turn out a controller who can control planes unassisted. Heck, my "indoc" alone is 13 weeks. So my point is, in this career, we have a ton of leverage that pilots don't have.

 

[AAflyer]

That's great! Well maybe I should get on your good side, and hope you remember me when chat on the radio. Special treatment (like SWA) .

I have met a few guys that are doing that. If I had lost my medical I would have done that. However I am now 34 and that is off the table.

Nobody bankrolled me. I started at 13. Was the airport kid. Had a paper route (2) that gave me enough money for a flight lesson every 2 weeks. I also got a lesson for my birthdays and Christmas etc. Washed planes for rides and flight time, etc. The instructors at the flying club were older and professionals in other fields. After flying with them for a couple years I ahrdly ever paid them, and the flying club C-150 rate in mid 80 to late 80s was about $25.00 an hour wet.

I met a lot of people, kept names and numbers, even jumpseated on some days off to meet other pilots from companies I was interested in. A lot had to do with timing and luck. I don't think I am any better for being hired here, just happened to be ready when all the majors where hiring great guns.
Still not sure that was good or bad, will let you now in another 26 years.

Best of luck, I also hope you find enjoyment in the job ( I think you will).

AA

 

[smellthejeta]

That's great! Well maybe I should get on your good side, and hope you remember me when chat on the radio. Special treatment (like SWA) .

I think this is a Jerry Maguire quote, but if you want special treatment, you have to "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"

I have met a few guys that are doing that. If I had lost my medical I would have done that. However I am now 34 and that is off the table.

You friggin nuts? ATC is a tougher medical than it takes to fly... I say that because at least in certain aspects, the waivers and sodas that are available to pilots aren't available to ATC. I guess you could be an ATC'er without legs (I'd have to look into that) but not as a commercial pilot, but other things like vision aren't waiverable. Trust me when I tell you I know.

Nobody bankrolled me. I started at 13. Was the airport kid. Had a paper route (2) that gave me enough money for a flight lesson every 2 weeks. I also got a lesson for my birthdays and Christmas etc. Washed planes for rides and flight time, etc. The instructors at the flying club were older and professionals in other fields. After flying with them for a couple years I ahrdly ever paid them, and the flying club C-150 rate in mid 80 to late 80s was about $25.00 an hour wet.

I still am the airport kid. Funny thing is my line job is real kick ass, both at work and on payday. If it wasn't for the fact that the going rate of a C172 is about $100/hr minus the deadweight in the right seat, I'd still be doing a lot of recreational flying. Given my budget, I can't justify spending more than a few hundered a month. I built the bulk of my time in a flying club C172 at $55/hr. Those were the days. Spending the $$$ as a "career enhancement" is one thing, but right now, for rec purposes, well, I need to be saving most of that.

I met a lot of people, kept names and numbers, even jumpseated on some days off to meet other pilots from companies I was interested in. A lot had to do with timing and luck. I don't think I am any better for being hired here, just happened to be ready when all the majors where hiring great guns.
Still not sure that was good or bad, will let you now in another 26 years.

Best of luck, I also hope you find enjoyment in the job ( I think you will).

AA

Thanks... it's funny, in another forum I frequent, somebody made a comment that SWA can afford to be choosy in hiring pilots because it is a "sought after" place to work for. I told them the reason it is sought after is simply because 1) They're hiring, and 2) They haven't been affected by the wage cuts that are making the legacies leaner and meaner, making them relatively well paid.

I know what cycles are too... with ATC, they're either in a massive hiring mode or they're not. Of course, they're trying to remedy that with this ten year cycle thing, but when more than half of your work force is eligible to retire within a five year window, that means you hire a TON of young guys to replace them, but then hire nobody for a long long time.

As far as enjoyment goes... yeah, part of it is the bucks, but a BIG BIG part of the reason I passed on a flying career is the stability. I have had roommates that have been furloughed 3 and 4 times, and those have all been from regionals. That means they've been at the bottom of a regional pay scale two or three times. No thanks. Flying is fun; being furloughed (or worried about it, or being the last to get furloughed and all the good jobs are taken) is not.