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Canadian bombing mistake..

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dsee8driver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
364
Following this story with CNN I have heard the same tapes everyone has. I was wondering from our military pilots outhere, if any of you had any feelings on whether they should be charged or not. Do you feel this case will have any impact on the way our militay aviators in combat will treat future threats? Have any of you used the drugs they talk about and if so what's your opinion on their use?

From the limited evidence I have seen on tv, and no military experience at all, I think it was a an accident and part of war. Blaming the pilots will not fix what I thought was a miscommunication problem.
 
One thing I took with me from the AF is not to be a Monday Morning Quarterback in these types of events. I wouldn't even start to voice my opinion unless I was on the investigating board. If you trust the media to provide you with an unbiased view of what happened, I have some beachfront property in AZ to sell you. If you think the military is going to provide you with an unbiased sequence of events, then I have some more beachfront property in CO for sale. You would not believe how much internal and external politics can influence the investigation and what you hear publicly. My advise would be to wait until this thing plays out and when all is said and done, still doubt the accuracy of what you hear. Clear as mud?
 
These pilots are good guys who believed they were defending themselves in a hostile environment. They should not be charged. It is a terrible example to be set. It is being done as a political expedient to appease the Canadians. Mistakes are made in the Clauswitzian "Fog of Battle." Fratricide is a part of every war. The Commander's job is to minimize it. This is a command failure - not a pilot failure. These pilots did not receive an adequate briefing. They were not informed that there were live fire exercizes along their route of flight. When they saw ground fire they thought that they were taking fire and responded accordingly. Very sad- but not criminal.
 
ExAF said:
One thing I took with me from the AF is not to be a Monday Morning Quarterback in these types of events. I wouldn't even start to voice my opinion unless I was on the investigating board. .......... My advise would be to wait until this thing plays out and when all is said and done, still doubt the accuracy of what you hear. Clear as mud?

I agree wholeheartedly ExAF.
Here is an interesting opinion piece from the WSJ. I do not agree with the General's opinion but it bears reading.


COMMENTARY FROM THE ARCHIVES
January 21, 2003
The Wall Street Journal

Friendly Fire: From Tragedy to Justice
By THOMAS MCINERNEY

On April 17, 2002, around 12:52 a.m., an Airborne Warning and Control Aircraft (Awacs) Controller told the two F-16 pilots of Coffee 51 Flight, to "Hold fire -- Need more details on Safire," the acronym for surface-to-air fire that one of the pilots thought was tracking the other's aircraft. The two F-16s, in the sky near Kandahar, Afghanistan, were on what is termed an "on call interdiction" mission, circling the area to respond to any calls from ground units needing their cover fire. Shortly after the Awacs order to hold fire, the wingman -- Coffee 52 -- rolled in on a target declaring, "I got some men on a road and it looks like they are firing at us. I am rolling in in self-defense."American Rules of Engagement (ROE) always authorize a response in self-defense. Coffee 52 dropped a 500-pound laser-guided bomb and scored a direct hit on Alpha Company, 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, which was engaged in night live-fire training at Tarnak Farms Range. Four Canadian soldiers were killed, and eight wounded.

Four minutes elapsed from the time Coffee Flight initially saw the firing on the ground to the time it released the laser-guided bomb. Eight seconds after impact, Awacs called out "friendlies."

Unanswered Questions
People make mistakes in the heat of combat. Was this one that we should accept as a tragic error and write off as an honest mistake? Many were made during Desert Storm, when we had around 30% of our casualties attributed to friendly fire. Why hadn't this live-fire exercise been briefed to the pilots, Maj. William Umbach and Maj. Harry Schmidt, two very well-qualified pilots from the Illinois Air National Guard? What was the urgency of this target that it had to be attacked after Awacs had already told Coffee 52 to "Hold fire" when he initially requested to fire on the location with his 20mm cannon? We all know that they would not deliberately fire on friendly forces. What went wrong that night?

The military has a process to answer these questions, and it is under way. Earlier, a Coalition Investigation Board (CIB) found the cause of this friendly-fire incident to be the failure of the two pilots to exercise appropriate flight discipline. This resulted in a violation of the ROE and inappropriate use of lethal force. Commander of the U.S. Central Command, Gen. Tommy R. Franks, approved the CIB findings and returned the report to the Air Force for action.

Last week, an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury) started at Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana. Prior to the start of the Article 32, the case had been well-publicized in the media by the pilots' attorneys and supporters. Unfortunately, virtually all those who have appeared on television are not fighter pilots and have not experienced surface-to-air fire at night. In addition, none were in the chain of command as a General Court Martial Authority. Because I have served in both of those capacities, I want to explain the facts to the public as I understand them.

We have an extraordinary amount of recorded audio and video to reconstruct this case and most of it is in the public domain. I have personally reviewed the audio and video tapes from both cockpits plus talked to Air Force members who have appeared at the Article 32 hearing.

The issue is whether Coffee 52, Maj. Schmidt, was acting in self-defense when he dropped the laser-guided bomb on friendly forces. The initial evidence does not support this contention for several reasons. First, he had been told to "Stand by" and "Hold fire" by the Awacs controller. Second, surface-to-air fire -- for those who have experienced it at night -- is very easy to distinguish from ground-to-ground fire, and Maj. Schmidt apparently mistook ground fire for fire aimed at his flight leader.Coffee 51 Flight was at 18,000 feet or higher and surface-to-air fire is not very effective at that altitude -- which is why they were there. Third, if the surface-to-air fire was tracking them, they took no evasive action nor discussed it when it happened. There was never any urgency expressed on the audio recordings. Fourth, from the time he locked his Forward Looking Infra Red Pod on the target there was no enemy fire coming at either plane according to both their cockpit video recorders. After bomb impact, and only when asked by Awacs, Coffee 52's audio recording did say "it seemed like it [Safire] was tracking around us and trying to lead us, with some sort of continuous fire with tops around 10,000 ft." Fifth, the daily Air Space Control Order had stipulated that Tarnak Farms was a Restricted Operating Zone (ROZ) with small arms firing up to 11,000 feet 24/7! Unfortunately, the pilots had not seen this nor had their squadron intelligence briefed them about this continuous ROZ.

These facts compel me to say that there is sufficient reason for the CIB to have acted, and for the ongoing Article 32 investigation to proceed. We have an important obligation to protect the integrity of our Command and Control System and our support of Coalition Ground Forces. People make mistakes in combat and we accept that, but when it appears that there is a violation of the ROE we must investigate and take appropriate action. This was not a split-second life-or-death decision. This was done during a very slow night of no combat activity by two very skilled pilots.

That said -- and this cannot be stressed enough -- there is absolutely no evidence to support the ongoing, spurious claims made in the media that "go pills," faulty night-vision goggles, or, most incredibly, U.S.-Canada relations had anything to do with why the ROE were violated that night above Afghanistan.

Close Scrutiny
As Coffee 52 was exiting the area after being told by Awacs that there were "friendlies" in the area, he said, "I hope that was the right thing to do," and his leader, Coffee 51, responded, "Me too." Both men knew they would be scrutinized closely for their actions that night. What counts most now is that the process of military justice be fair, as I have every expectation it will be. The Air Force must continue to do the right thing, as must Majors Schmidt and Umbach. A tragic mistake was made and four brave Canadian soldiers were killed and eight injured. We -- and they -- are entitled to a full and fair accounting by our military authorities. Trying this case in the media would be a great injustice to both men, and to the service to which they belong.

Gen. McInerney , a retired three-star Air Force lieutenant general and former assistant vice chief of staff, is now a Fox News military analyst.
Updated January 21, 2003
 
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my $0.02

They were on the way home from what I heard.
They should defend themselves, but may not have needed to here.
They should not fly an Air Force jet again, but should not go to jail. It's combat.
 
I've never even sat in an F-15, and I've never held a commission...so take my opinion for what it's worth.

I think the government needs to hand the Canadians someone's head(s) on a silver platter, and since the two pilots involved are at the bottom of the food chain, it's going to be them, regardless of right or wrong.

It does seem to me that for anyone to have dropped bombs on friendly forces anywhere, a communication breakdown has to have taken place somewhere. I just can't believe that Majors Schmidt and Umbach deserve 100% of the blame.
 
I hate to say it, but they were flying F-16's
I think the government needs to hand the Canadians someone's head(s) on a silver platter, and since the two pilots involved are at the bottom of the food chain, it's going to be them, regardless of right or wrong.
I disagree on NEEDING to, but I do agree that it'll be the pilots. There are lots of cases of frat in combat and if they get jail time that'll be a first. I can tell you that they honestly thought they were doing the right thing.
a communication breakdown has to have taken place somewhere. I just can't believe that Majors Schmidt and Umbach deserve 100% of the blame.
You are 100% right on IMHO.
These dudes are partially to blame I think, but not because of pep pills, or not getting shot at. The pep pills are necessary sometimes to fly a single seat fighter on 8, 10, 12 hour missions at night.
Someone on CNN said that surface to surface fire was obviously different than surface to air fire at night. I couldn't tell the darn difference. Not that I'm an expert.
 
I'm not a military officer and I have never been shot at. My opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

If the AWACS controllers didn't know for sure until after it happened I don't think the blame can be completely on the pilots. The truth is someone in the bureaucracy knew about but chose not to include specifics on live fire exercises in the information the pilots were briefed on. As a result one of these guys dropped bombs thinking they were being fired on.

It doesn't relieve them of responsibility, but I'd say it is mitigating.

Its too bad you can't put the bureaucrat on trial.

I guess we'll see what happens.
 

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