Can you appeal an FAA failed checkride??

[350DRIVER]

Jedi,

Go back and read what was said for starters. IF he so chooses to take the re-test with the FAA and he does pass, then guess what.?? He will still have a bust from the first ride unless he could get the FAA to side with him and wipe the first check off his record completely and pretend that this flight was his first "attempt", highly unlikely unless he has overwhelming evidence to prove his case. Just because one "busts" a ride with a DPE and does the re-take with the FAA, it really means nothing at all...It is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. keep in mind that these "DPE's" are picked by the FAA and I find it highly unlikely that they will wipe the slate clean if you cannot show a "trend" of unfair treatment and testing on things outside of what was in the PTS. It is much easier to re-test with the guy that busted him. It would be nothing more than a very steep uphill battle that likely would not be won. Is it "fair"? no, but who said life was fair all the time.

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[JediNein]

I did read what he said very carefully. I am quite familar with the process for having the FAA do a checkride re-take to replace a DPE's checkride. The words I used probably were too close together in meaning, but what I meant is a world apart.

With no further training and no further endorsement (endorsement requirement may vary with FSDO), but a new 8710, he can take a checkride with the FAA to dispute the result of the DPE's ride. If that ride with the FAA is a pass, the DPE's failure is wiped from the record. The FAA's guidance is very clear on this matter that the applicant can take the FAA ride to replace the DPE ride WITHOUT cause. There is no "highly unlikely" about it.

He doesn't have to complain about the examiner to take a checkride with the FAA that wipes the slate clean. The inspector is going to be awfully d*mn curious about why this person wants to take the ride, but it is the applicant's right to do so.

Is it easy? Only the person taking the re-ride can be the judge of that. After the checkride from h*ll with questions outside the PTS, there's really nothing that the FAA can throw at you that you shouldn't already be able to handle.

Another possibility is he could also have the FAA do the next checkride after retraining and another instructor endorsement. Yes there will be a bust on the record.

Or, he could reward the DPE with another examination fee and take the next checkride with the DPE. I recommend against using the same examiner for the next checkride from the way the applicant felt he was treated.

I have a problem with this DPE acting like a DME (Designated Mechanic Examiner) and forcing the applicant to accept the DPE's incorrect information.

However, it is still ACE757's decision and life. He asked for advice and got it.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

With no further training and no further endorsement (endorsement requirement may vary with FSDO), but a new 8710, he can take a checkride with the FAA to dispute the result of the DPE's ride. If that ride with the FAA is a pass, the DPE's failure is wiped from the record. The FAA's guidance is very clear on this matter that the applicant can take the FAA ride to replace the DPE ride WITHOUT cause. There is no "highly unlikely" about it.

Where does it state that a "dis-satisfied" applicant who fails the ride with a dpe can then go to the local FSDO without any further endorsement, do the oral, take a flight, pass it, and in return the "initial" bust from the dpe is then wiped clean from the slate.? I will patiently await your answer.

He doesn't have to complain about the examiner to take a checkride with the FAA that wipes the slate clean. The inspector is going to be awfully d*mn curious about why this person wants to take the ride, but it is the applicant's right to do so.

Ok, so the FSDO inspector I am sure will not be "curious" on "why" this applicant has come to the fsdo versus taking a re-check with the examiner.?

I am rather curious on where you are getting this information from since I have found nothing at all relating to this in the FAR's and other reference material.


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[JediNein]

This is difficult to find on purpose. Have you ever met a student that was happy they failed a ride?

DPE's Handbook, Chapter 5, Section 1:

45. REVIEW OF AN EXAMINER'S DECISION. An applicant who is not satisfied with an examiner's decision may obtain another practical test or appropriate reevaluation from an inspector without prejudice. In such cases, the applicant will be given the complete test, including any phases already approved by the examiner. The applicant will prepare a new FAA Form 8710-1 and the inspector will complete a new certification file. Following the retest, both the examiner's and the inspector's certification files are forwarded to AFS-760. The inspector's report determines if a certificate is issued. The inspector will discuss the test results with the applicant and answer any questions relevant to the evaluation. The inspector may also discuss the test results with the examiner separately.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

I'll quote the source as soon as I relocate it. It's difficult to find on purpose. Have you ever met a student that was happy they failed a ride?

I have never met a "happy" student after they have failed a ride. I just find it somewhat "odd" that you are saying that a student who fails a ride with a dpe can then go to the FAA with just the 8710 (without any further training or endorsement), re-test, pass, then have the initial bust removed from the student's file in OKC. I would and have always thought that "proper justification" would be needed to make this work out in the applicant's favor. Once again I will patiently await your response on where to locate this information.

c h e e r s

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[JediNein]

I editted my post instead of making a new one, sorry. I just immediately put my hands on the paper.

When I say no endorsement, it really does vary by FSDO. I am aware of cases where the person did an FAA ride the day after failing a DPE ride without getting an instructor endorsement. I'm also aware of a FSDO that requires an instructor endorsement. Finally, I know of an Inspector that flat out did not know if an endorsement was required.

It has not been important to get a final answer on the endorsment issue, especially as you don't want to be in the position of having proven the Inspector wrong right before you get your checkride from them.

I always thought that proper justification was needed, too, but just being dissatisfied with the checkride result is enough. Probably has something to do with the 'user fees' arguments.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

When I say no endorsement, it really does vary by FSDO. I am aware of cases where the person did an FAA ride the day after failing a DPE ride without getting an instructor endorsement. I'm also aware of a FSDO that requires an instructor endorsement. Finally, I know of an Inspector that flat out did not know if an endorsement was required.

I believe there then would be a double standard in place. I am familiar with quite a few different FSDO's haven't delt directly with them while doing my captain initial and they all have been very clear on the 8710's. I am unsure who told you that this can "vary" depending on what fsdo is in charge.? I have always thought that every fsdo went by the same rules with regards to failed rides, etc, etc, . . . . I believe the cases that you have mentioned are not the "norm" with regards to check rides.

It has not been important to get a final answer on the endorsment issue, especially as you don't want to be in the position of having proven the Inspector wrong right before you get your checkride from them.

I think this issue is somewhat "important" since many CFI's would like a definitive answer regarding this issue. Once again, I have found in no document or text from the FAA site that would elaborate or go into detail on the previous discussed issue. I have a very hard time buying into what has been said but who knows.

I always thought that proper justification was needed, too, but just being dissatisfied with the checkride result is enough. Probably has something to do with the 'user fees' arguments.

I still have a hard time believing that sending a student to a local fsdo after a dpe has busted him without any further training and endorsement is not a good idea and may raise a red flag. When you find the material that states that a "bust" will be removed from the applicant's file I would appreciate you posting where you found it.


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[bobbysamd]

Stupid Examiner Questions

Well, since you ask, Northern Air Cargo Has an STC for trimming a few inches off the wings of their DC-6's for precisely that reason.

Alright. But is it fair for a new Commercial applicant to know of a DC-6 STC?? No! The examiner was busting balls.

Jedi (welcome back! ) brings up extremely interesting information. However, as a practical matter, there are a couple of compelling and tangible reasons not to bother with an appeal, aside from the ol' boy rationale. (1) It might take a while to schedule a recheck with FSDO, and (2) you might get an inspector who is far tougher and/or a bigger asshole than the designee. What if you bust with the ASI? Is one going to appeal a FSDO bust??

Ace is still better off sucking it up and taking the recheck. Or, he could start over with another DE.

 

[JediNein]

Hi Bobbysamd! (Congrats on 4000+ posts)
There are times when the FSDO moves quite fast, and rechecks, especially with a potential DPE complaint, are one of those times. The bigger the aircraft, the faster the FAA moves.

The ASI might be a bigger jerk than the DPE but the test will be within the practical test standards. It may be a very valuable learning experience to ask the ASI to go through the entire practical test, even if the failure occurs on the second question in the oral, just to have an idea of any multiple areas that may need work before retaking an FAA ride. Except on "709" rides, I have found ASI's to go out of their way to put an applicant at ease before a checkride.

I've also found the attitude of the applicants to be quite different when going for a new FAA ride than on a 709 or initial CFI ride. The applicant's attitude sets the ASI's attitude. For 709 rides, 'it's not my fault' and 'they're being mean to me' attitudes generally prevail. For initial CFI rides, attitudes are all over the place. For FAA rides to replace a DPE ride, the four I've encountered have been "I know I will pass with a fair test and I don't care how many ASIs ride along. Give me the meanest SOB/ASI in the FSDO and let's go fly."

350DRIVER, those cases I mentioned were from people that had failed rides with a DPE, thought the PTS was not met by the DPE, successfully took a new checkride ride with the FAA, and had the DPE failure removed from their records. The only definitive answer on an endorsement would come from the FAA's National Legal Counsel after writing a request for clarification.

Probably most of the cases where this has or might occur, the instructor that sent the applicant to the DPE checkride still thinks the person is qualified to take the checkride and just signs the 8710 without hesitation. In one case, the instructor of a quickie course and the examiner were working together and the instructor refused to endorse the person again without further retraining. That person took his FAA ride and passed without a second instructor endorsement on the 8710, retraining, or more than 2 days from initial DPE ride to FAA ride. It was also in a turbine aircraft.

In the four cases I am familiar with, the "has been retrained after a failed checkride' endorsement in the logbook was not required and in one case was specifically not recommended (do not have this endorsement in your logbook when you come in).

Again, the only final answer will come from FAA's National Legal Counsel. Even with Legal's answer, if the instructor is willing to sign the 8710 and the ASI wants the 8710 signed, get it signed.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[mizzouguy]

Talk to your FSDO. This is a BS question, and i cant imagine asking that in a checkride. He has to answer to his FSDO like I do and they will investigate it. I wouldnt go back to him for a recheck if I were you