Can anyone introduce me to Corp. Flying?

[banned username 2]

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I have flown as a passenger in 200+ airline flights, 20+ of them Transatlantics. And I get bored as you wouldn't believe at FL390.

It's just not the type of flying I would like to do. Flying at 5000ft or 10000ft is much more like it for me.

So my goal right now, is to figure out, if there is a type of job, as a pilot, that suites the type of flying that I like.

Well you won't make much money flying slow and low... The money just isn't there... You might like crop-dusting... I hear you can make a pretty decent buck and it is definately flying low and slow... all seat-of-the-pants flying...

Unfortunately you aren't going to find someone to pay you $50,000-$60,000 flying a twin Cessna... You sound like you would probably more enjoy a career in another field and flying for fun on the weekends... I honestly don't think you are going to find the job you are looking for at a salary you can live (long term) on...

Good Luck!

 

[puddlejumper]

To reiterate my previous post, with proper networking you may wind up in some more advanced equipment. I personally know of an instructor who started with a guy, he bought a new Saratoga, then a Seneca, then a King Air C90B, then a CitationJet and finally a Citation Bravo. Unfortunately, after the Bravo, the pilot bailed, but hey this guy may wind up in a Falcon or Gulfstream some day.

Treat every student like a multi-millionaire. It may lead to bigger and better things!

-PJ

 

[Archer]

So puddlejumper, this "networking" you talk about, you say a CFI has a chance to meet many student pilots, and make many connections through them, to perhaps rich people, that own light twins or singles, and need pilots to fly them? And that they upgrade to turbine airplanes?

So you say, it's a little by chance. You meet the right person who offers you the right job, just some rich guy that wants you to fly him around in a pistion at first?


Falcon, professional pilots start with piston singles, then move on to twin pistons and so on.

I think I would enjoy this type of flying and would not be in any hurry to move on to turbine. That's what I'm trying to get across. I wouldn't mind flying say 2 or 3 years or more (if the pay is not horrible) and building multi time, and then moving on to turbine and jet.

I think I should correct myself. I wouldn't like to fly at FL390 with a big jet airliner. But I would love to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear at that or even FL 510

But I think some people might not like (just like the case of CFI) the time they have to spend in piston airplanes, wanting to go to jet planes right away. I'm saying I have no such urge, and would not mind building up quite some time in Senecas and Barons, and then later on in King Airs for a slow transition to business jets.

ARcher

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon, professional pilots start with piston singles, then move on to twin pistons and so on.

I think I would enjoy this type of flying and would not be in any hurry to move on to turbine. That's what I'm trying to get across. I wouldn't mind flying say 2 or 3 years or more (if the pay is not horrible) and building multi time, and then moving on to turbine and jet.

I think I should correct myself. I wouldn't like to fly at FL390 with a big jet airliner. But I would love to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear at that or even FL 510

But I think some people might not like (just like the case of CFI) the time they have to spend in piston airplanes, wanting to go to jet planes right away. I'm saying I have no such urge, and would not mind building up quite some time in Senecas and Barons, and then later on in King Airs for a slow transition to business jets.

ARcher

Now I am really confused, earlier you we basically saying you wanted to be flying something big and fast by the time you had 600 hours, then you said you had absolutely no interest in flying anything that has more than 10 seats or that flies above 5,000-10,000 ft... Now you are back to wanting to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear (I am disappointed you didn't include a Falcon in this mix )

OK, lets make this easy... what is your ultimate goal? Lets say, when you are 35 years old and have 7,000 hours... where do you want to be? Flying what kind of aircraft in what kind of job? Then we can reverse engineer that into a realistic career path for you....

Man you change your mind a lot, this isn't my wife is it????

 

[Archer]

Falcon, I should of included Falcon In fact, I really like the tri-jet design...(btw, how does it compare to twin-jets? Just even less of a chance of loosing all thrust?)

The truth is, I don't really know what to do myself either Falcon.

I know what I DON'T want to do though.

I don't want to fly in any Major airlines EVER! It is out of the question, I don't like it. I feel about regionals the same way, to a lesser extent, as the flight times are significatnly lower, and the airplanes smaller. For example, the difference between my 8+ hour 777 ride Heathrow-O'hare and the 33 minute ride on ERJ-135 from O'Hare to Indy.

So no regionals or majors. Cargo, it's even worse. No Cargo at all. I feel it's more challenging to carry passengers, and a huge motivation to be the best pilot you can be. Plus you might to get to meet a few extra people.

So no Cargo, Regionals or Majors. I can't join the Air Force because of my bad eye sight. So no military.

I don't want to fly little planes for the rest of my life either. I.e medevac, bush pilots, or whatever requires use of small piston airplanes. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but I'm sure after 10 years of flying a Seneca, even that will get boring, and I'll want to fly a King Air or a Light Jet.

So tell me Falcon, what does that leave me with? Corporate aviation.

Flying rich people in their private jets, or flying business men with company jets, or whoever else uses business jets.


Now, if you asked me for my real dream, where I really wanted to be when I will be 35? You'll get scared.

My dream, would be to own a flight business of some kind, with piston, turbine and jet airplanes up to light/medium business jet size, and be one of the pilots as well, in some beautiful area of the world with a flexible schdule making over 100 grand a year.

Now that is my dream. That would satisfy three of my wants:

1) Fly
2) Make a lot of money
3) Have a flexible schedule *I* control

Now, you are probably thinking, this guy wants the moon. Well you are probably right, and the only way I probably woudl ever be able to fly a business jet would be by flying someone elses, on someone else's schedule, at a much lower salary.


Now, I realize that the "owning the flight business and being one fo the pilots as well" is a little far fetched, but it still hovers in the back of my mind everyday of my life.

A more realistic goal would be to where you are today Falcon. You said your company hires with an initial salary of 80,000. That takes care of my goal of making a good amount of money with my job. You fly the Falcon 900EX and have flown Citations, Lears, King Airs and what not. You are the captain of a fabulous airplane. It is probably a lot of fun. So that cares of the "flying" part. The only thing remaining is the shedule flexibility, but that is not as important as the other two.

Getting to a position were you fly a multi-million dollar piece of equipment, have fun and make a lot of money would basically satisfy my goals and desires.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I would like a job as a pilot were trips don't take more than 5 hours or so. Short trips basically. Otherwise we approach the my dislike for Major airlines, the only difference being that of flying a smaller airplane.

One of my major concerns though, is the fact that I'm not a US citizen. It is one the things that bothers me the most about my current major in college. 90% of the companies that I would like to work with I can't, because they require US citizenship. Now I've heard that the airlines require too after 9/11, I just hope corporate flying doesn't.

So basically, i'm currently training in the FAA system, so it would be good if I decided to become a professional pilot, to establish myself here with a job. If not, I would have to go to Europe, and adapt to the JAA system, and I don't know how different it is, and whether I need to spend another billion dollars and hours to re-train. Plus, there is a language problem...though english is the international pilot's language...does that mean I would have no trouble flying in France, Italy, Spain, Germany etc?

So I have several barriers ahead of me if I wanted to become a professional corporate pilot:

1)Trying to decide whether Corporate flying, and professional flying is for me in the first place

2)If I discover that this is the case, then the next step is convicing my parents that I would like to become a professional pilot, rather than an Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineer with a Masters and even MBA in that field. I would most probably have to give up getting an MS and spend time and money flying

3)If I decide to fly professionally, and my parents ever agree to it, then what remains is finish up my BS in AAE and start getting those FAA ratings and licences and building up hours somehow.

4)Once I graduate, and perhaps have PP/ASEL-IA or perhaps even CP/ASEL-IA or PP/AMEL-IA then I have to see if I can get a job not being a US citizen, i.e. getting a working visa to be able to continue staying in the US or having to go back to Europe

5)Now, if I decided to fly professionally, if my parents agreed to it, if I had gotten my B.S.A.A.E degree, and had gotten the ratings up to PP or CP/ASEL-IA, then if i got a flying job and visa in the US, I would just continue to work in the US as a pilot, and try to get a green card and a good Corporate job in the US.

If not, I would have to go back to Europe, and I have no clue how anything related to aviation works there compared to the FAA and US system. I would be in a state of confusion.

Well, the alternative to all this, is once again, getting my BSAAE, MSAAE and working as an engineer full time, and flying for pleasure or working as a CFI or something par time...either in the US or Europe, depending on who is willing to hire me.

So basically, I am one confused student right now. I have to paths ahead of me. That of an Engineer, and part time leisure Pilot. Or that of a Professional Pilot, with a background in Aerospace Engineering.

This will most probably be the biggest decision that I will make in my entire life. I will have to listen to my parents, to my friends, relatives, teachers and people on this board.

I will have to get as much advice and information as possible, and make an informed decision in the end.

I will still go up to ATP as a goal in life. No matter what path I choose. And that decision will have to be made within the next year 2004.

Archer

 

[Snakum]

"a CFI is a master pilot, an almost perfect pilot"

Wow ... where are YOU flying?

CFIs are all over the map, just like any other profession. In 1995, when I first started taking lessons at a little FBO in NC, my instructor was a young Dutch kid who didn't really have his heart in it and felt he wasn't gonna learn anything new. He had already flown around 500 hours in Holland and he was just over here building time. And boy ... was he building time. I only flew four times with him (all early mornings) and three of those he was literally still drunk from partying the night before. Just reeking. I didn't know any better ... I figured all instructors were like this. You know ... hard-drinking cowboy types. What did I know? On my fourth flight he decided it'd be fun to show me a spin. If I'd thought I could land the plane I'd have thrown him out. I'd wanted to fly since I was a kid (I was in my thirties) but I didn't want any part of this, I figured all civilian instructors were like Mr. Fun-is-where-you-find-it.

He just didn't care about teaching, or about learning. And if you really hate the thought of CFI'ing ... for the sake of new pilots coming up ... don't teach. Don't even get a CFI. Go pull banners er sump'n. I didn't fly again for a year, and almost by chance met an instructor at a larger FBO in NC and discovered that most CFIs are dedicated professionals, regardless of age (and if anyone knows where Mike Kennington is lemme know). Captain Cowboy was an anomoly, and in no way a representative of the profession, but I'm afraid he has company.

Because I've had to start and stop so many times over the years, and because I've also moved alot, I have flown with a huge number of CFIs. And I have flown with instructors at other places who were rude and arrogant or lazy and risky or whatever. And it always comes back to whether or not their heart is really in it, I think. The FBO where I finally finished my PPL had, by far, the most professional and personable instructors I've seen. Instructors there, like my primary CFI and a couple of his coworkers (KingAirKiddo), appeared to me to be in it for all the right reasons. I was there when COEX hired at least one CFI at 600/100 but these guys never seemed to be in a great rush to get in an RJ. They were doing their job, and doing it well, because they wanted to teach and were still willing to learn. Now, all flight instructors laugh at, and talk $hit about, goofy things students do. But on the job ... they were consumate professionals.

So, as I said, do the next student a favor. Stay out of the FSDO and just go pull banners er sump'n. A CFI who hated instructing almost disuaded me from something that has become very dear to me, I'd hate for you to do that to someone else.

Minh "Preachy" Thong

 

[StrykerFL]

Archer, Pick Up This Book & Flying in Alaska

Archer,

You have a lot of good questions and seem very eager to learn as much as you can about this industry and that’s good. I was the same way when I was just starting out. I recommend that you pick up a book titled the “Professional Pilot Career Guide” by Robert P. Marx. The ISBN # is 0-07-134691-0. It is a excellent resource for the up-and-coming pilot. It thoroughly outlines the following topics:

1. Flight Training
- Flight Schools
- Training Standardization
- Part 61 or 141
- Costs
2. Ratings
3. Where the Jobs Are
- Resume Writing
- CFI
- Time Builders
- Banner Towing
4. Regional Airlines
5. Major Airlines
6. More Jobs
- Charter Flying
- Corporate Flying
- Government Flying

Career-wise personally I will probably build up another 500-700 hrs and then go up to Alaska and find a flying job up there, more than likely a 135 Cargo job. My brother has been up there for three-years now and has been flying about 120-140 hrs a month in a Skyvan (twin turboprop) and is making about 60k/year. Hell even A 206 job at the same company pays 45k. Also I am worried about the state of the industry right now and in the coming 5-7 years. If the Majors keep furloughing pilots at the rate they are going and don’t start recalling for another 2-3 years that would put a hiring window at around 5-7 years from now and maybe even as much as 10. And that is not taking into account certain factors such as another terrorist attack, war with Iraq, etc.. Sure the Regionals are hiring now, but for how long? As long as they are putting new equipment online they will be hiring however, since the Majors aren’t hiring that means that Regional Captains are not moving up and eventually, when the Regionals quit buying new aircraft they will quit hiring as well. Some say it is best to get in now but do you get in now and get trapped as a First Officer for who knows how long? Or do you pursue a different route such as corporate or cargo? I don’t mean to sound negative but that just seems to be the way things are going right now.

Like I said earlier, I will go up to Alaska and put my skills the test. I have been there many times and I must say that flying up there would be absolutely amazing. You cannot imagine how beautiful it is up there. Another deciding factor is that no matter what happens, terrorist attacks (Biological or Nuclear), War, or raising oil prices, much of Alaska’s economy depends on aviation to survive, so there will always be good flying jobs there. If I were you and looking at a serious flying career, do your research, look at all the options. Get that book. For instance, I know one company, Pen Air (Anchorage), that hires low-time pilots into the right seat of the Caravan, and it is legitimate SIC turbine time. So there are many different options available to you, just make sure and explore them all.

Anonther thing, if you are looking for some challenging flying, it does not matter if you are flying people or boxes. At least with boxes they don't complain and get scared and nervous when you are flying in clouds, fog, icing, snow, sleet, and other nasty s**t. If you really want a challange go fly in Alaska. It dosen't get much worse than that. My brother told me about his typical day. He flies in western Alaska and makes deliveries to remote villages. First he checks to see if he can even takeoff, weather, crosswind under 35-knots, good-to-go. Winds during the winter months there can reach 100-knots. Next he gets his daily routing and preflights the A/C. He flies the Skyvan so he flies the longer routes and bigger loads, but he still lands on 1500' gravel strips. Navigation is easy with the CAPSTONE system. Fifty-miles to his destination he'll call the village to find out the weather and that usually depends on what he is delivering. If it's beer or liquor the weather is always good. He'll land on some of the s**tiest runways you have ever seen unload, take a piss and head back home. Western Alaska is pretty much all frozen tundra so there isn't much to look at besides for the occasional heard of Moose or Caribou. There aren't too many VOR's but there are a ton of NDB's so you're NDB skills must be excellent. Once you find you're way back home you must land with that 35-knot direct crosswind and remember to hold in the crosswind correction on the ground else you get flipped. When it is all said and done he flew 8-hours and got some quality twin-turbine time. Sound challenging? I think so. Much more challenging conditions than you'll find here in the "Lower 48" as they say. The only disavantages is that it isn't cheap to live in Alaska, winters can be very, very, very cold, summers however are amazing, and oh yeah, you get up to 24-hours of daylight in the summer and as little as 4-hours of daylight in the winter. This also depends on where you live. But they do pay you to live there, so that kinda offsets it.

Whatever you do in your career remember one thing, enjoy it. If you really love to fly it's not about the money, benefits, or travel; it's the ability to be seperated from the Earth and fly like bird. To truly be free.

Good-Luck.

 

[banned username 2]

Well Archer... You sould like you might Like Corporate Aviation... We have constant variety in schedule and destinations... You get to know your passengers very well (our company we are all on first name basis...)

You could try to find a Coporate operator who flies mainly domestic.. that would keep your legs under 4-5 hours...

Don't discount the International Corporate flying... I used to think that I didn't want to leave the country.. after years of flying domestically the International flying was a new and exciting challenge... And when you fly the bigger airplanes on the longer trips you eat REALLY well enroute... I like to think of my job as "Eating my way around the world!"

Keep you mind open to new and exciting things... you are at the tip of the iceberg right now... you have no idea how vast the aviation industry can be...

Just like there are good and bad airline jobs, there are good and bad Corporate jobs... If you get a good one you will make good money, fly great equipment and have a decent schedule... (we average 12 days a month of work, leaving an average of 18 days a month off... and when we are off, we have no other company related duties...)

Keep your mind open... Oh and as far as Corporate Aviation in Europe.... it is tiny compared to the US... There are (relatively) very few Corporate operators in Europe.

Good Luck!

 

[COOPERVANE]

WHAT???? FLAMEBAIT????

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

So no Cargo, Regionals or Majors. I can't join the Air Force because of my bad eye sight. So no military.

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I don't want to fly little planes for the rest of my life either. I.e medevac, bush pilots, or whatever requires use of small piston airplanes. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but I'm sure after 10 years of flying a Seneca, even that will get boring, and I'll want to fly a King Air or a Light Jet.

ARCHER..........YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE. Start with your private first. Fly for a while and get your instrument ticket while in school. If you still want to do this for a living you will be in a MUCH better and well informed position than you are now.

HIRED AT 6-700 HOURS? read banner towing (2 years ago)

I KNOW YOU ARE JUST ASKING BUT YOU ARE GETTING WAAAAAAYYY AHEAD OF YOURSELF

There is no magic bullet, we all have to pay our dues

 

[Archer]

Coopervane, the decision I would have to make is in a year and a half. Probably the biggest decision of my life, I don't think I'm getting ahead at all.

I'm just aquiring advice and information to be able to make a better choice when the time comes (which is not far from now).

It's a lot of infromation out there in the aviation world...and it takes time to get to know it...so might as well start early...

Is Corporate Aviation really less common in Europe? Any reason for it?

Have you flown in Europe Falcon? How difficult would it be to adapt to the JAA system coming from the US FAA one?

One thing I know about Europe (the UK specifically) is that it cost WAAY more to learn to fly, and to keep proficiency/currency...I think there is an annual fee that pilots (even Private Pilots) have to pay yearly to keep their licence...and it's not a little fee either...that's what I heard I think...not 100% on it though....

Archer