CAL inching towards ceasing lump sum option

[densoo]

And the eventual value of the Lifetime Annuity "option" with any airline in this day is probably near zero.

CAL declares bankruptcy, hands it over to the PBGC, then the government pays a dime to the dollar, or will zero it out because of the deficit.

"Even with CAL’s assurances, you should be aware of the consequences of a liquidity shortfall. If a liquidity shortfall occurs, and CAL fails to make a contribution to cure it, they would be in violation of applicable pension legislation and would be subject to a ten percent excise tax on the amount of the liquidity shortfall. For example, if at the end of the fourth quarter, there is a liquidity shortfall of $15M, CAL could contribute $15M to the pilot pension fund to make up the shortfall or instead, they could pay $1.5M to the IRS as a penalty. To pay the excise tax rather than make a contribution seems a waste, since the excise tax does not go towards paying benefits or offsetting the shortfall, but rather solely to the IRS’ coffers. It is important to note, however, that if CAL chooses to pay the excise tax in lieu of making the necessary contributions, the lump sum option would not be available for each affected quarter.

CAL has this year contributed $70M into the non-pilot pension fund (the one management is in) and only $32M into the pilot pension fund. The non-pilot pension plan is being funded above the 80 percent level -- the minimum level necessary to protect their lump sum-- while our pension plan has deteriorated and come closer to a liquidity shortfall and the possible resulting suspension of our lump sums."

 

[whymeworry?]

Betcha' the age-60+ guys who decided to stay are kicking themselves now for not taking the early retirement package that was offered 2 months ago.

Gee, you get to work till your 65 (if you can make it that long), pay more taxes, and have pretty much nothing left when finally given the boot.

Can't wait to hear their whining once they really have to hang up flying for good.

 

[whatitdoing?]

This is going to be painful.

 

[Flopgut]

I will not listen to anyone complain about losing thier lump sum if they were eligible to go under the ERW and didn't. Period.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Ya, cuz 75k or whatever it was was HUGE money. Think how much these guys will be losing in their frozen A fund. I don't think this is the case. It was a letter given to Kellner warning him of the shortcomings of their contributions, thus resulting in a possible liquidity of assets. Won't happen. If anything, it's a prod to get moving with it. We'll see.

 

[Flopgut]

It could have been as much as 150k. Whatever it was the ship has sailed; Will not happen again IMHO. Larry offered the ERW so he can look them in hte eye when it's terminated or the lump sum ends and say he gave them a chance to get out. Too stupid to help themselves.

 

[Flopgut]

If anything, it's a prod to get moving with it. We'll see.

Did you catch the part about the company more fully meeting the same obligations for the non pilot employee retirement plan? That should indicate a lot.

 

[AWACoff]

It could have been as much as 150k. Whatever it was the ship has sailed; Will not happen again IMHO. Larry offered the ERW so he can look them in hte eye when it's terminated or the lump sum ends and say he gave them a chance to get out. Too stupid to help themselves.

100K was the top amount.

 

[Flopgut]

100k, thanks. I wasn't sure.

Did any of these guys not think there wouldn't be a funding disparity when they forced their money out of the single A plan? I have a small amount in there so they wouldn' listen to me. I felt to single out the pilots was to put a bullseye on it.

 

[SFR]

Who cares.... we have a B-fund anyway.

 

[nimtz]

And the eventual value of the Lifetime Annuity "option" with any airline in this day is probably near zero.

CAL declares bankruptcy, hands it over to the PBGC, then the government pays a dime to the dollar, or will zero it out because of the deficit.

So Larry and company are fiendishly twirling their imaginary mustaches at the great idea of bankrupting the airline and screwing shareholders (including them) just to terminate the pilot pensions. Come on dude, try living in reality a touch...

 

[densoo]

dude

Dude!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So the question is what next?

Is there going to be a mass exodus?

Or has the over 60 crowd just decided to stay till 65 now that they have too?

Considering the stupidity of those who did not take the bonus program and the retirement when they could have, it seems likely no one will leave.

 

[Flopgut]

If they end the lump sum, think how far the money will go? What's a guy going to do after retiring from CAL at 65: Live very long? I doubt it. Of course I forgot...how exactly do you divide that up between 2-3 wives?

 

[Twotter Driver]

If they can afford to get out now, invest some or all of their lump sum in the market, sit on it for a few years, I think they will make out quite nicely. That’s what I’d do if I were in their shoes! They should be able to double if not triple the current value of their lump sum.

 

[tie1on]

payback is a bitch. most of these guys that crossed the line in the 80's got the bonus of screwing the junior guys one more time, but now the tide has changed. they should run while they have the chance or get used to living on an annunity.


they can work until they are 65, if they can keep a medical.


Too frickin bad. you had a chance and you blew it, larry will have the last laugh

 

[flygirlqt]

I guess we have the new breed of opportunists piping in on this thread.

The junior vs senior mentality has never accomplished anything anywhere. What would some of you be saying if those that deserve and are owed the lump sum were politicking to eliminate scope to save their pensions?

 

[hmmm]

That's just it..... Politicking for scope elimination to save pensions by the guys that are now retired is what seemed to start the ball rolling many years back wasn't it?

 

[captbert]

What would some of you be saying if those that deserve and are owed the lump sum were politicking to eliminate scope to save their pensions?

Good luck with that. The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan. There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

 

[densoo]

The junior vs senior mentality has never accomplished anything anywhere.

It accomplished plenty for the senior mentality.

 

[densoo]

The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan.

And if the company offers them something in exchange for pensions they don't have, they'll probably take it.

 

[densoo]

There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

They even formed a group which grew so fast that the union coopted its founder in order to blunt its effect.

 

[densoo]

I guess we have the new breed of opportunists piping in on this thread.

Why is it suddenly "opportunistic" when another group forms a voting block large enough to get their own pocketbook concerns taken care of?

 

[flygirlqt]

Why is it suddenly "opportunistic" when another group forms a voting block large enough to get their own pocketbook concerns taken care of?

You just made my point for me if you don't phrase the above as a question. I would be just as upset and would say the same thing if some senior pilot was willing to throw a junior guy under the bus.

It accomplished plenty for the senior mentality.

Looking at Contract 02 I would have to disagree with you.

Good luck with that. The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan. There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

As my father (rEAL) used to say "ALPA the Captains union". Wouldn't it look so much better to see 100% of the pilots pulling for 100% of every ones interests? The company made a commitment to the A plan and all of us need to hold their feet to the fire to honor it.

If any of us lets that go what will be the next section of the contract they will try and abrogate?
We all must stand strong on all issues that effect every single pilot. Forming factions favoring one interest over another will divide the pilots. Management 101

 

[densoo]

I would be just as upset and would say the same thing if some senior pilot was willing to throw a junior guy under the bus.

No one's upset and no one's throwing anyone under a bus. One group had a decisive voting block last time, another may have it this time. What you're describing though is a little like the Wall Street bailout. When they get bailed out, hey, it's just capitalism; that's the way the system works. Everyone has a fair shake. However, when we get bailed out, it's socialism; it's a moral issue, can't do that, it's not the American way, etc.

Another way many seem to look at it is that if the senior folks are thrown under the bus, there is something unethical, wrong, and mean-spirited about it. When the junior folks are thrown under the bus, that's life, pay your dues, find another job it you don't like it.

 

[flygirlqt]

No one's upset and no one's throwing anyone under a bus. One group had a decisive voting block last time, another may have it this time.

I hope you are right that some of the me me me attitudes are few and far between (like a couple on the thread). I agree about the voting block but last time they sure scared a lot of people at each end of the list.

What you're describing though is a little like the Wall Street bailout. When they get bailed out, hey, it's just capitalism; that's the way the system works. Everyone has a fair shake. However, when we get bailed out, it's socialism; it's a moral issue, can't do that, it's not the American way, etc.

LOL!!! (not at you). For the record, I think the bailout was a sham. Ironic how the Government wants a plan for the automakers (good) but just shovels money at the financial institutions (foolish).

Another way many seem to look at it is that if the senior folks are thrown under the bus, there is something unethical, wrong, and mean-spirited about it. When the junior folks are thrown under the bus, that's life, pay your dues, find another job it you don't like it.

Which is exactly the attitude that needs to change. Everyone has an equal stake in this new contract. No one issue should be more important than another. This way we can fight management collectively instead of fractured.

All right...enough of FI, I've got finals to study for.

 

[Flopgut]

I guess we have the new breed of opportunists piping in on this thread.

The junior vs senior mentality has never accomplished anything anywhere. What would some of you be saying if those that deserve and are owed the lump sum were politicking to eliminate scope to save their pensions?

The difference is: As you look out across the profession, the committment owed the senior by the junior is paid in full and carried a he11 of a price. Furloughs, scope clauses trashed and draconian paycuts leveled at the junior disproportionately are a reallity. Senior CAL guys hoard the frozen A plan dollars, keep the seniority, thumb their noses at a legitimate ERW, and take a mulligan on retirement age? Enough is enough. It's not personal and it's not retaliation. I stay apprised of ALPA negotiations and there is not a single nugget that comes in that the top pilots don't try to put in their pocket first.

I think there is a remote chance CAL might try one of those pre-arranged BKs that seem to be in vogue right now. Obviously they want to change our scope and scuttle the pilot A plan if they choose to do this. I don't think we should waste too much effort trying to save the A plan. Many of the pilots you'd find yourself caring about just left. The ones who stayed aren't going to be ready at 65 (or any age) anyway. Let's not throw good money after bad, Let's use the majority we have to do the right thing for the group.

All that said: I do hope we DO NOT have to go this route.

 

[Captain X]

They even formed a group which grew so fast that the union coopted its founder in order to blunt its effect.

And some members of that same group (yes Virginia the one's without the A-Plan) tried vehemently to get the union to speak up as a rallying cry for the membership about the deceleration of A-Plan funding schedule...but the reps said we had no need to concern ourselves with such things...

And then, ironically, they (the "group") was vilified as "divisive" by some who are all about their A-Fund and will sell their own children to take care of themselves (oh...and not from the 83-85 demographic either) but act like they are the great unifiers themselves. "We're senior. We've been here longer than you. You will learn in time but for now you have no need to concern yourselves with such things. We've got it under control."

Interesting.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

How does a CAL "A" plan integrate with a UAL/CAL merger?

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Good luck with that. The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan. There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

Now that's unity. Well guess what it's got to get by our MEC first, before it ever makes the light of day to the pilot group. Well Tara and I hold just under 50% of the MEC Roll Call votes (3-1-09) and in the not to distant future we will hold slightly more then 50% of the roll call vote.

What does this mean? Any attempt to get rid our "A" Plan will never get by the MEC.

Guess what any attempt to keep a "B" scale in effect years 2 - 6 or poverty new hire pay with no insurance will also never get by the MEC, if I have any say.

How about we stand should to shoulder, 5000 strong and fight the common enemy, Continental Management?

Instead of promoting infighting and more thinking about just "ME" and "I", how about we promote unity and negotiating a fair and equatable contract for all 5000 CAL pilots?