CAL inching towards ceasing lump sum option

[densoo]

The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan.

And if the company offers them something in exchange for pensions they don't have, they'll probably take it.

 

[densoo]

There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

They even formed a group which grew so fast that the union coopted its founder in order to blunt its effect.

 

[densoo]

I guess we have the new breed of opportunists piping in on this thread.

Why is it suddenly "opportunistic" when another group forms a voting block large enough to get their own pocketbook concerns taken care of?

 

[flygirlqt]

Why is it suddenly "opportunistic" when another group forms a voting block large enough to get their own pocketbook concerns taken care of?

You just made my point for me if you don't phrase the above as a question. I would be just as upset and would say the same thing if some senior pilot was willing to throw a junior guy under the bus.

It accomplished plenty for the senior mentality.

Looking at Contract 02 I would have to disagree with you.

Good luck with that. The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan. There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

As my father (rEAL) used to say "ALPA the Captains union". Wouldn't it look so much better to see 100% of the pilots pulling for 100% of every ones interests? The company made a commitment to the A plan and all of us need to hold their feet to the fire to honor it.

If any of us lets that go what will be the next section of the contract they will try and abrogate?
We all must stand strong on all issues that effect every single pilot. Forming factions favoring one interest over another will divide the pilots. Management 101

 

[densoo]

I would be just as upset and would say the same thing if some senior pilot was willing to throw a junior guy under the bus.

No one's upset and no one's throwing anyone under a bus. One group had a decisive voting block last time, another may have it this time. What you're describing though is a little like the Wall Street bailout. When they get bailed out, hey, it's just capitalism; that's the way the system works. Everyone has a fair shake. However, when we get bailed out, it's socialism; it's a moral issue, can't do that, it's not the American way, etc.

Another way many seem to look at it is that if the senior folks are thrown under the bus, there is something unethical, wrong, and mean-spirited about it. When the junior folks are thrown under the bus, that's life, pay your dues, find another job it you don't like it.

 

[flygirlqt]

No one's upset and no one's throwing anyone under a bus. One group had a decisive voting block last time, another may have it this time.

I hope you are right that some of the me me me attitudes are few and far between (like a couple on the thread). I agree about the voting block but last time they sure scared a lot of people at each end of the list.

What you're describing though is a little like the Wall Street bailout. When they get bailed out, hey, it's just capitalism; that's the way the system works. Everyone has a fair shake. However, when we get bailed out, it's socialism; it's a moral issue, can't do that, it's not the American way, etc.

LOL!!! (not at you). For the record, I think the bailout was a sham. Ironic how the Government wants a plan for the automakers (good) but just shovels money at the financial institutions (foolish).

Another way many seem to look at it is that if the senior folks are thrown under the bus, there is something unethical, wrong, and mean-spirited about it. When the junior folks are thrown under the bus, that's life, pay your dues, find another job it you don't like it.

Which is exactly the attitude that needs to change. Everyone has an equal stake in this new contract. No one issue should be more important than another. This way we can fight management collectively instead of fractured.

All right...enough of FI, I've got finals to study for.

 

[Flopgut]

I guess we have the new breed of opportunists piping in on this thread.

The junior vs senior mentality has never accomplished anything anywhere. What would some of you be saying if those that deserve and are owed the lump sum were politicking to eliminate scope to save their pensions?

The difference is: As you look out across the profession, the committment owed the senior by the junior is paid in full and carried a he11 of a price. Furloughs, scope clauses trashed and draconian paycuts leveled at the junior disproportionately are a reallity. Senior CAL guys hoard the frozen A plan dollars, keep the seniority, thumb their noses at a legitimate ERW, and take a mulligan on retirement age? Enough is enough. It's not personal and it's not retaliation. I stay apprised of ALPA negotiations and there is not a single nugget that comes in that the top pilots don't try to put in their pocket first.

I think there is a remote chance CAL might try one of those pre-arranged BKs that seem to be in vogue right now. Obviously they want to change our scope and scuttle the pilot A plan if they choose to do this. I don't think we should waste too much effort trying to save the A plan. Many of the pilots you'd find yourself caring about just left. The ones who stayed aren't going to be ready at 65 (or any age) anyway. Let's not throw good money after bad, Let's use the majority we have to do the right thing for the group.

All that said: I do hope we DO NOT have to go this route.

 

[Captain X]

They even formed a group which grew so fast that the union coopted its founder in order to blunt its effect.

And some members of that same group (yes Virginia the one's without the A-Plan) tried vehemently to get the union to speak up as a rallying cry for the membership about the deceleration of A-Plan funding schedule...but the reps said we had no need to concern ourselves with such things...

And then, ironically, they (the "group") was vilified as "divisive" by some who are all about their A-Fund and will sell their own children to take care of themselves (oh...and not from the 83-85 demographic either) but act like they are the great unifiers themselves. "We're senior. We've been here longer than you. You will learn in time but for now you have no need to concern yourselves with such things. We've got it under control."

Interesting.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

How does a CAL "A" plan integrate with a UAL/CAL merger?

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Good luck with that. The pilots that have anything significant in the A plan are outnumbered by 3 times the number of pilots who have nothing or almost nothing in the A plan. There are over 1500 pilots (30% of the pilots) that have been hired since 2005, and they do not participate in the A plan.

Now that's unity. Well guess what it's got to get by our MEC first, before it ever makes the light of day to the pilot group. Well Tara and I hold just under 50% of the MEC Roll Call votes (3-1-09) and in the not to distant future we will hold slightly more then 50% of the roll call vote.

What does this mean? Any attempt to get rid our "A" Plan will never get by the MEC.

Guess what any attempt to keep a "B" scale in effect years 2 - 6 or poverty new hire pay with no insurance will also never get by the MEC, if I have any say.

How about we stand should to shoulder, 5000 strong and fight the common enemy, Continental Management?

Instead of promoting infighting and more thinking about just "ME" and "I", how about we promote unity and negotiating a fair and equatable contract for all 5000 CAL pilots?

 

[Plug]

Now that's unity. Well guess what it's got to get by our MEC first, before it ever makes the light of day to the pilot group. Well Tara and I hold just under 50% of the MEC Roll Call votes (3-1-09) and in the not to distant future we will hold slightly more then 50% of the roll call vote.

What does this mean? Any attempt to get rid our "A" Plan will never get by the MEC.

Guess what any attempt to keep a "B" scale in effect years 2 - 6 or poverty new hire pay with no insurance will also never get by the MEC, if I have any say.

How about we stand should to shoulder, 5000 strong and fight the common enemy, Continental Management?

Instead of promoting infighting and more thinking about just "ME" and "I", how about we promote unity and negotiating a fair and equatable contract for all 5000 CAL pilots?

Jayson, I don't think Captbert is anti-unity, in fact, he is very much for unity as he attends as many LEC meetings as he can, spreads the word on important issues, etc. Bert is all about combating management but he was simply pointing out the fa ct that we have some with A funds that would sell us bottom guys down the river to protect it.

Cheers

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Jayson, I don't think Captbert is anti-unity, in fact, he is very much for unity as he attends as many LEC meetings as he can, spreads the word on important issues, etc. Bert is all about combating management but he was simply pointing out the fa ct that we have some with A funds that would sell us bottom guys down the river to protect it.

Cheers

If that is the case then I misinterpreted his stance and one of the disadvantages of this medium as it is one dimension and sometimes the meaning of the poster is lost in the words. If that is the case I apologize.

When we get our LEC 170 Communication and comprehensive committee's up and running starting 3/1/09 we are going to educate all of our pilots from senior to junior. We are going to engage this pilot group to promote unity.

To all the junior pilots you have my promise as the EWR CA Rep (starting 3/1/09) I will not allow anyone junior or senior alike to be allowed to make major gains in Contract 08 at the expense of either group. I will do my best to provide the infrastructure to negotiate a contract with massive gains in all sections applicable to all pilots on the seniority list.

If we are going to be successful in Contract 08 we need the senior pilots to tell the junior pilots we are going to fight together to get rid of your "B" scale and unacceptable new hire pay and benefits (or lack thereof). Conversely we need the junior pilots to tell the senior pilots we are to fight to make sure the company doesn't take away your "A" plan and lump sum.

 

[Plug]

If that is the case then I misinterpreted his stance and one of the disadvantages of this medium as it is one dimension and sometimes the meaning of the poster is lost in the words. If that is the case I apologize.

When we get our LEC 170 Communication and comprehensive committee's up and running starting 3/1/09 we are going to educate all of our pilots from senior to junior. We are going to engage this pilot group to promote unity.

To all the junior pilots you have my promise as the EWR CA Rep (starting 3/1/09) I will not allow anyone junior or senior alike to be allowed to make major gains in Contract 08 at the expense of either group. I will do my best to provide the infrastructure to negotiate a contract with massive gains in all sections applicable to all pilots on the seniority list.

If we are going to be successful in Contract 08 we need the senior pilots to tell the junior pilots we are going to fight together to get rid of your "B" scale and unacceptable new hire pay and benefits (or lack thereof). Conversely we need the junior pilots to tell the senior pilots we are to fight to make sure the company doesn't take away your "A" plan and lump sum.

That is why Captbert and I voted for you.

Cheers