CAF's Heinkel He - 111 crashes...

[WrightAvia]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Central/07/10/bomber.crash.ap/

 

[Skull-One]

Any word on this accident? Was this a Vmc-induced crash?

What a waste of two men and a fine airplane. Tragic indeed.

 

[AceCrackshot]

I feel like the black angel of historic aircraft...I spent alot of time in that airplane when it visited SBY last fall. And I visited the Stratoliner for about two hours in BIL went it was returning to Seattle.

Remind me not to visit the Connie in MKC...

This aviation stuff is getting dangerous.

 

[FL000]

Not knowing what this A/C looks like, I did a quick search. I found the plane (very nice looking), but I also found out that Confederate Air Force changed its name to Commemorative Air Force almost 2 years ago. That news flash slipped by me. Did the PCs get hold of their nuts too? Where does all this crud end?

CAF news release

 

[Skull-One]

Yeah, apparently they spent so much time defending the term "Confederate" when they went to corporate sponsors that it became a hassle. Nevermind that the Tuskegee Airmen back the CAF all the way....

It was an inside (non-racist) joke that got twisted into something by the PC crowd.

The HE-111 has had a history of problems if I recall correctly. I seem to recall it nosing over and smashing the glass up when I was five or six years old (c. 1978). It also had a problem with a prop once--the thing apparently came loose and nearly spun off the airplane in flight (they shut it down just in time). What else do I recall? I think prior to the new desert paint it had a landing gear collapse on one side.

It was a veteran of the movie "Battle of Britain" I think. I seem to recall the CAF having two HE-111s back in the late 70s, but I cannot confirm this info. It may have been a privately owned Heinkel that just showed up for the annual "AIRSHO" in October...

As for being the angel of death, don't feel bad. I have hung around just about every single CAF airplane to crash. Notables: A-20 Havoc, B-26 Marauder, PBY Catalina, P-47 Thunderbolt, P-82 Twin Mustang, and SB2C Helldiver. All of them bought it within days/weeks of my seeing them up close. I don't touch any of the airplanes any more out of superstition even though it is only coincidence.

I spent years working with "Devil Dog" in Harlingen. I live in fear daily of something bad happening to that airplane....oh wait...it already happened. They ran it off the runway on landing last year.

Woops....

 

[AceCrackshot]

Maybe they need new pilots...once is an accident, twice happenstance, the third time is enemy action. I know it's nice to get corporate sponsors and rich guys money make the airplane go "VROOM!" BUT can we really stand around and watch rich people destroy history? I had this discussion with a Captain who was big into historic aircraft preservation.

 

[Skull-One]

I think they need to keep flying the airplanes because there is no replacement for a living and breathing history lesson. *BUT*....

The airline business is very safe for a number of reasons (redundancy, procedures, etc. etc. etc.)....

However, have you ever noticed that CFIs have one of the more risky professions in aviation and manage to do it with a high degree of safety?

I think MEIs have a better safety record than the Warbird community does. No, a Seminole doesn't compare to an HE-111, I understand that. But MEIs practice this sort of thing all the time. Why don't warbird groups like the CAF practice these things more? I think practicing single-engine operations and other emergencies (becoming intimately familiar with them, even) will pay dividends far beyond their cost.

IIRC, the B-26 was lost much the same way as the HE-111 was--engine failure.

A PBJ isn't too much to handle when everything is working but when a prop stops.... Being familiar with this would save airplanes.

I'm rambling. Train like you fight, fight like you train. That's what I mean. Taking an HE for a lap around the pattern a couple of times a year isn't going to cut it.

 

[flywithastick]

Not knowing what this A/C looks like, I did a quick search.

???? don't tell us you aren't familiar with what a Spitfire, FW-190, Betty Bomber, P-39 looks like either! I bet I checked out every book on airplanes 20 times from the school and local libraries as a kid. Could recollect every major air battle, the top US aces (Gabreski, Bong, OHare, etc), ranges, speeds, power, etc for all the planes of the era. Don't tell me you newer model pilots didn't do the same!!

I found the plane (very nice looking),

definitely had that German "functional" look.

but I also found out that Confederate Air Force changed its name to Commemorative Air Force almost 2 years ago. That news flash slipped by me. Did the PCs get hold of their nuts too? Where does all this crud end?

The PC's did get ahold of them. Fina was the big push behind caving.

confederacy (confederate) - an alliance of persons, parties or states.

AceCrackshot - Maybe they need new pilots...once is an accident, twice happenstance, the third time is enemy action. I know it's nice to get corporate sponsors and rich guys money make the airplane go "VROOM!" BUT can we really stand around and watch rich people destroy history? I had this discussion with a Captain who was big into historic aircraft preservation.

Your position has several flaws. 1. The planes belong to the CAF, not the public or individuals in most cases. Can't just go around seizing people's property, unless it's a wetland or in the path of a new Costco. 2. The vast majority of CAF members are not rich - many not even by democRAT sandards. That's why the planes are flown to airshows - to earn their keep. 3. You should become wealthy, buy up some of the planes and put them in a museum.

 

[AceCrackshot]

"You should become wealthy, buy up some of the planes and put them in a museum."

Working on it! I take donations...

Seriously, the question was really one of the absolute preservation of aircraft (museum) vs. flying the a/c to airshows.
The argument would be that flying the aircraft to airshows introduces it to millions (potentially) while keeping it in a hanger just reduces the possibility of catatropic loss (New England Aviation Museum, anyone?) and limits its visibility to the public at large.

However, LOA'a aside, I do think that the requirements for flying high performance (L39s, MiGs) and historic aircraft are too low.
Moreover, too many are are lost hotdogging at airshows, or being dinging needlessly by realitively unexperienced pilots. If we're going to lose a P-51, wouldn't everyone want it to be a absolutely unforseeable circumstance?

I once heard someone say that you don't really own antiques, you're just taking care of them for the future. I wish certain elements of the antique airplane community (who do some yeoman work in the field of historical preservation) would take this to heart, rather than indulging in the Walter Mitty stuff.

 

[mainah]

Not knowing what this A/C looks like, I did a quick search. I found the plane (very nice looking), but I also found out that Confederate Air Force changed its name to Commemorative Air Force almost 2 years ago. That news flash slipped by me. Did the PCs get hold of their nuts too? Where does all this crud end?


A little off the topic but when I got into aviation a few years back I told my mother that I was going to see the Confederate Air Force planes and my mother, a southerner, asked me why we had our own air force in the south.

 

[flywithastick]

"You should become wealthy, buy up some of the planes and put them in a museum."

Working on it! I take donations...

Seriously, the question was really one of the absolute preservation of aircraft (museum) vs. flying the a/c to airshows.
The argument would be that flying the aircraft to airshows introduces it to millions (potentially) while keeping it in a hanger just reduces the possibility of catatropic loss (New England Aviation Museum, anyone?) and limits its visibility to the public at large.

I hear you. It tears me up when one is lost.

However, LOA'a aside, I do think that the requirements for flying high performance (L39s, MiGs) and historic aircraft are too low.
Moreover, too many are are lost hotdogging at airshows, or being dinging needlessly by realitively unexperienced pilots. If we're going to lose a P-51, wouldn't everyone want it to be a absolutely unforseeable circumstance?

There's a catch to enforcing higher quals on flying these planes. Most are maintained by groups of dedicated members/volunteers. These folks spend hours and hours working on the planes. They have checkout programs and min quals. Are they enough? Maybe, maybe not.

But, I do know that if you had a situation where people with 500-1000 hours, T-6 checkout, some time in type, etc. can't fly these things, then the volunteer base would dry up quickly. The planes I'm very familiar with are maintained by the pilots. There's a pool of pilots who work and fly. the primary pilots fly the shows. the low timers fly (autopilot) to the shows and ferry the planes. If there was no carrot, most might give up the chase.

I once heard someone say that you don't really own antiques, you're just taking care of them for the future.

I don't have a problem with this, but we have to respect the right of property ownership, otherwise people will not be motivated to work and purchase things.

Personally, I have a '46 Cub. Wouldn't dream of doing anything to it except for a possible conversion to an L-4. But even that's a big stretch since it has it's original NC-no and all logs. Pretty original and will stay that way if I can help it.

What chaps me is when the Hollywood types crash and burn planes for movies. wouldn't hurt my feelings if the historical planes (>30 yrs old) were protected from wilful destruction.

I wish certain elements of the antique airplane community (who do some yeoman work in the field of historical preservation) would take this to heart, rather than indulging in the Walter Mitty stuff.

I think the analogy is a little off. The guys I know fly the planes for the fun of meeting others in the business, performing at the shows, and just being involved with the planes. Most are just normal guys who have found a niche where they can travel to shows, work on neat, old airplanes and get to fly as a reward for their work. Some are in another world possibly, but I've never met one in my short time associated with the group. mostly pretty normal guys who just enjoy flying.

What might be the wave of the future is replicas. the Tora group flies replicas of the Jap planes. Granted, they're modified US warplanes, but I bet you could still bring in the crowds with a nice looking replica with a round motor strapped on the front. ythey do pretty good with their's.

 

[FL000]

???? don't tell us you aren't familiar with what a Spitfire, FW-190, Betty Bomber, P-39 looks like either! I bet I checked out every book on airplanes 20 times from the school and local libraries as a kid. Could recollect every major air battle, the top US aces (Gabreski, Bong, OHare, etc), ranges, speeds, power, etc for all the planes of the era. Don't tell me you newer model pilots didn't do the same!!

I think I built every plane out there as a kid, spilling my glue all over the windscreens, and accidentally ripping the decals before I could get them onto the fuselage because I was too impatient to wait for the water to wash them off the paper. I also recalled building the HE-111 out of a Revell kit after I saw the photo of it.

However, I do not live up to your standards of fascination and memorization of every type of plane out there. I have my favorites, and the Heinkel ain't one of 'em. I did pick up a book at Barnes and Noble about 2 years ago called The Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft. It is a complete catalog of every civilian and military aircraft every produced worldwide. For some reason it was on sale for $15, marked down from 80 bucks. It's a great reference tool.