Buying a plane and instructing

[flyboydk]

A friend of mine wants me to instruct him, he has zero time. I have also been thinking about getting a small single, like a warrior or 172. We were thinking about how feasible it would be for us to both go in on a plane like that... would it save him money on his flight training in the long run and be a good deal for me? He would be paying for fuel anytime I was instructing him, plus paying me for my instruction, but then I would have a plane to build time in also anytime I wanted to. What do you guys think?

 

[Timebuilder]

Insurance.

 

[Capt. Tex]

Insurance.

That about sums it up....

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A 300hr CFI and a 0 time student in thier own A/C.

yup.

Insurance.

theres a little saying about floats...flys....

 

[flyboydk]

Yeah I thought insurance would be the big part, I haven't checked into that yet. Thanks

 

[guitarflyer]

It's been awhile since I instructed, but I seem to remember that if an aircraft is provided by the student for compensated instruction, then 100 hr inspections are NOT required. However if YOU the instructor, are providing the a/c, then I believe 100 hr inspections ARE required as well as annuals.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong or that has changed........
Just one more expense to deal with.

I would think you would be well advised to speak with an a/c insurance agent or attorney.
Or just call AOPA. 1-800-USA-AOPA They pretty much know everything with regards to aviation.
If you're not a member, you should be.

Good luck

 

[Goffer]

It's been awhile since I instructed, but I seem to remember that if an aircraft is provided by the student for compensated instruction, then 100 hr inspections are NOT required. However if YOU the instructor, are providing the a/c, then I believe 100 hr inspections ARE required as well as annuals.

I believe you're right. 91.409: ...and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft WHICH THAT PERSON PROVIDES, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service that aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection...

but again like said before insurance...

 

[SATCFI]

Not a bad idea at all. One of my planes is owned jointly with a SEL pilot and he is receiving instruction from me towards his MEL (with insurance company blessing.) Might want to calculate your share of the insurance. I would not pay 1/2 since a majority of the hull insurance will be due to his inexperience.

And, unless you instruct a non owner, no 100-hour inspections are required. If you do decide to instruct others, please ensure you have a commercial policy. When I looked at acquiring a single for instruction, I couldn't find anyone willing to write the policy. Oddly enough, I was able to get insurance to teach in my Champ...only $300 above non-commercial insurance.

Good luck!

 

[fr0g]

insurance? insurance? insurance?
Holy Cow.
I have had a '59 172 since I had about 100 hours TT, and have never paid more than $900 / year for my insurance (through AOPA). Granted, it is a "private" aircraft - I do not rent it out or use it for commercial purposes. That, however, does not prevent me from receiving flight instruction in my own plane. If your buddy can lay down the money for an aircraft purchase, I think it would be the way to go. Honestly though, it depends on how much you guys plan on flying. I don't think it's worth it if you don't fly at least 200-300 hours a year. You shouldn't have to do any 100 hour inspections, just the annual, as long as you don't rent the plane out.
Good luck with that

 

[bugchaser]

I bought a '76 172 back in November primarily to use as a trainer. Like was stated above, if you are going to rent to non-owners, you will have to have commercial insurance as well as comply with the 100 hr inspections. Make sure you are sitting down for this: The insurance is running about 6k for the year. If you really plug in realistic costs, you will need to rent the airplane about 250 hrs/yr to break even. I am currently getting $75 for the airplane and $30 for instruction. Even in this small town, I have been able to drum up about 5 primary students. We have put about 100 hrs on in the last couple of months. If I get lucky with repairs, maybe I'll even make a buck or two.

 

[tinman]

1975 172 M. 3 months ago my quote was just under $6,000 a year for commercial. It was only that low because I have been in business for a couple of years. A new guy would have to put up over $6,500. Sucks!

 

[88_MALIBU]

I bought a Cherokee 180 to get all my ratings in, I dont know if its a better deal to buy your own, but it makes scheduling probs non existant, I unlock the hangar and go when I want. Insurance-hangar-fuel-overhaul-GPS updates-MX... But I have built 1000 hours in 3 years. I pay $864/ year for a rate. Seems to be a tad high but normal from my research.

 

[LearLove]

sometime down the road in the next 3-5 years i'd like to get a supercub and do tailwheel checkouts, BFR's, sky rides (if they stay and part 91), and maybe some "fill in" traffic watch or fish spotting. Now I don't want to rent the aircraft out solo just instruction by me with 100+ tailwheel and 6000+ total time and ATP ect.

My question is how much is it gonna cost to insure a supercub of about 65, 000 hull value?

 

[bugchaser]

Hey LearLove, I don't think it will be all that bad with your time. Probably about 3 grand a year (WAG). If this insurance thing doesn't slow down, there will be no grass roots aviation in the future. The days of a kid going out to the local airport and learning to fly are fast going away. It's really a sad deal. As we loose more and more of these recreational type flyers, the impact will be felt by all of us in the industry.

 

[sky37d]

We are returning our aircraft to service, and use, and the insurance bill actually went down, by abt $1K, to $2.3K. $80K hull value.
1969 Cessna 337D, 500 hour pilot

 

[Crizz]

I believe you're right. 91.409: ...and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft WHICH THAT PERSON PROVIDES, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service that aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection...

The key phrase in that REG is "for hire." You can do all the instruction you want in your own plane with non-owners as long as they are simply paying operating costs and you are not recieving compensation.

I own a 172 and pay about $900/year for a private policy. I have spoken with my insurance agent in great detail about this issue. The policy I have grants me an open pilot clause with a private pilot rating as the qualifier. No time requirement. It also allows for compensation equaling but not exceeding the cost of operating the aircraft.

That said, dont get into buying an airplane to make money. Get into one to build flight time and have others pay for you to fly your own airplane. If you want to go in as a partner with this guy I see no reason in the world that you should not be able to do it. I started zero time in my plane. Soloed it with about 4 hours in it. My policy was about $1100 for that year.

As far as saving money goes I'll let you decide. At my school, it is not uncommon for people to rack up $40-60k in flight training costs from Private to CFI/I/ME. I spent about 22k start to finish. It was alot more work to own an airplane and deal with MX and everything listed earlier. However, that extra $20k+ that I didnt spend is well worth the extra effort. I guarentee you will learn alot in the process as well, and that is invaluable.

There is NO insurance issue if you are both owners.

 

[tinman]

My question is how much is it gonna cost to insure a supercub of about 65, 000 hull value?

I do hope it's different for you, but during the past year with three different aircraft here's the story I got. As soon as you receive a penny over operating costs it's commercial. Big money time. We tried 4 or 5 different companies too. It's getting less about who's PIC and more about "is there money involved?". It's very sad, and also tends to piss a guy off.

 

[SATCFI]

Crizz,

In your scenario you provide the plane for instruction but don't charge beyond operating cost, is that correct? What do you consider operating costs?

What is your motivation for providing instruction without compensation?

You mentioned discussions with your insurance company on the issue, but you never came out and said you told them you are giving dual instruction in the aircraft. Did you? If so, and they said OK, I'd sure get it in writing, because that doesn't pass the common sense test. I hope you are not fooling yourself with what we in the military call "barracks lawyering."

 

[goaliemn]

Find a local club

I bought into a club and I'm so glad I did. I don't have to worry about "surprise" repairs and such, even annuals and overhauls are budgeted into our monthly dues. It also gives me ownership in the planes (5 of them. 2 172's 2 182's 1 sr20) so I'm covered by the main insurance policy, and its so much cheeper than renting from the local FBO's.

See if the 2 of you could buy acouple of club shares. I know my club allows CFI's that are members to train other members as both are owners and covered by the insurance, and no 100hrs needed as you're both owners.

www.goalie.cx/gallery/planes are the club planes I need to get some better pictures.

 

[Crizz]

Crizz,

In your scenario you provide the plane for instruction but don't charge beyond operating cost, is that correct? What do you consider operating costs?

What is your motivation for providing instruction without compensation?

You mentioned discussions with your insurance company on the issue, but you never came out and said you told them you are giving dual instruction in the aircraft. Did you? If so, and they said OK, I'd sure get it in writing, because that doesn't pass the common sense test. I hope you are not fooling yourself with what we in the military call "barracks lawyering."

I didnt say anything about my scenario and what I am doing. I simply commmentated on the regs and the bounds of my insurance policy. And yes, I have my entire policy in writing. Tinman is dead on. They dont care untill there is money being made.