Buy a plane?

[s0ldier93]

Just wondering what the general thoughts are on buying planes after achieving a PPL to complete training and build hours for a few years.

I am considering purchasing an IFR certified (or close) 152. I understand what type investment I'd be getting into financially. My question is, would I be looked down upon by potencial employers for training and building hours this way? That is, as opposed to the many flight schools and safety programs.

 

[jdog78]

I think employers would be impressed by the fact that you own your own airplane. Anyone can go to an FBO or flight school and buy their time and ratings. It takes talent, though, to buy and maintain your own aircraft, and that will count for something eventually.
Buying an aircraft can also be a good investment, as long as it is well maintained. I would say do it...i know I would if I had it to do over again!

-j

 

[s0ldier93]

jdog78-

Thanks for the input. I didn't think of it from that point of view. I was thinking that it might be looked upon as a poor way gain hours.

 

[350DRIVER]

s0ldier93,

I do not think that the purchase of the aircraft will have any adverse or negative effects down the line when you go to interview. I personally have a few friends that did the same as you are contemplating and one is currently at Flight Options and the others are 121 present day. Remember you need to also consider what type of "experience" that will be gained by doing this, it is my opinion that is more than just a "flight time" issue. I would take the route that gives you the best possible way to gain the valuable experience. You may also want to consider going into a flying club where you would have a 1/3 share or so.

good luck,

3 5 0

 

[s0ldier93]

Thanks for the added encouragement 350DRIVER. It's no longer seeming like a crazy idea. . . . . IFR 152's seem to come in between 17-22k. that's doable.

If it helps anyone else, I just picked up this great book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070681589/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-5890723-3239924#reader-link

There's allot of good information for lowtimers like me

 

[tataki]

IFR 152's seem to come in between 17-22k. that's doable.

In Pretty good shape? where did you see those s0ldier93.

 

[ummkai]

owning

Owning your own airplane is a fantastic experience! You will learn more about FARs (as they apply to maintenance) than you ever dreamed was imaginable......

But let me rain on the parade a bit.... the initial cost of the aircraft is a small percentage of the ownership cost. I have owned two airplanes of my own - a C-172 and a Citabria. I would suggest that if you have to take a loan for the purchase, don't do it. The monthly owner costs, in addition to the loan payment, become pretty cumbersome.

An annual inspection on a C-152 can easily run 2K. Insurance (hull & liability) can also run around 2K (especially for a low time pilot). Then theres hanger costs, engine maintenance, avionics repairs, oil changes, brake pads, tires, etc.

Theres a lot of things you can't do as an owner. Anything having to do with the airframe and engine are off limits (except for oil changes & spark plugs). Any avionics repairs have to be performed by and signed off by a technician. Even carpet or mats in the airplane have to be FAA arrpoved.

True Story: Once the nose sump on my C-172 was sticking open after doing the preflight fuel strain. Turned out that a small metal spring that help tention on the plunger was bad. The local hardware store had a spring of exactly the same size for about 2 dollars. However, in order to keep the plane legally airworthy, I had to use the FAA certified part, which cost almost $100! And I had to have an A&P install it. The whole thing cost me about $250.

On one of the annuals, it was found that my C-172 had 2 cracked cycliners. The engine had less than 900 hours since it's last overhaul. The repair of those two jugs cost me over 3K.

Aircraft maintenance is VERY costly. I would never try to talk anyone out of owning their own plane - I'll own another one someday - just be careful of all the additional costs. Much more expensive than buying a second car or a boat.

Depending on the number of hours you plan to fly in a given year, renting at the local FBO actually works out to be a cheaper per hour deal. And clubs are about the best option.

Good luck. Airplane ownership is rewarding, but it can break you if you aren't prepared.....

 

[s0ldier93]

tataki -

http://www.global-air.com/
http://www.vickiofvermont.com/vicki/

I can say much about the shape of them, but these are two of the sites I've looked at. . . . . . .Anyone have any experience with these guys?

ummkai-

Thank you for the words of caution. In my recent studies I've learned that the maintenance cost can easily outwiegh everything else. I hope to find an A&P that will let me assist as much as possible while making repairs and doing annuals. I've been talking to the one at my flight school about doing just that. We'll see how that works out.

The planes I'm looking at (152/Cheroke 140 range) are in the under 20K. The plan is (was?) to have at least half of that cash on hand, get a loan for the entire amount, and use the onhand money to augment paments and be there for unexpected maintenance. Does the sound resonable? I was thinking that doing the loan thing instead of waiting a little over twice the time to save the entire amount would help spread the cost. Please let me know how far off base I am.

Last thing is, my initial plan is to use it to strictly for trainig and hour building. Light travel will of coarse happen, but unless I get really attached to it (possible right?), I'm thinking I'll only have it for 2 years before selling.

 

[English]

I bought my first airplane when I had around 80 hours. It was a Cessna Hawk XP, a great little airplane. I went in with two partners. It was a fantastic experience - no scheduling conflicts at all. I was never looked down upon for building my flight time in my own airplane. My two partners rarely flew the airplane, but they covered 2/3rds of the fixed costs of ownership. It was a sweet deal. It allowed me to do Angel Flight missions easily and last-minute. I also flew 70+ Young Eagles in it. Because it was my airplane, and not a rental, I could fly wherever I wanted for however long I wanted.

Owning that airplane made for great interview stories. There is definitely not a downside in the eyes of an interviewer in building your flight time in your own aircraft. In fact, you might be viewed as being more committed to aviation and a flying career if you do this.

 

[tataki]

Thank you Soldier
I am also seriously thinking about buing my own airplane after i finish my ifr rating. I am willing to put everything on it. I am already leaving my apartment and renting a room, i am going to sell most of my furniture etc....

I just wish i could find one or two parter to do it with me.

 

[s0ldier93]

wow

Well, my fears of negativeness in job hunting just went out of the window. Thanks for all of the great advice guys.

I'm not sure I want a partner though. Unexpected maintenance will always be a bear, but I think I can still handle most of the costs of a 152 or the like on my own (with my wife's help). especially knowing that I'll always want to be flying somewhere
I truely believe that if I could afford the gas and oil, I'd be in the air every day that's flyable.

I further think that I might start shopping around at the local airports (PVG, CPK, JGG) to see if I can find one I can look at.

 

[goaliemn]

Have you looked into buying into a flying club? Gives you fractional ownership at a fraction of the cost. I bought into a club with 5 planes (2 172s 2 182-RGs 1 Cirrus SR20) for $3500. Montly dues for insurance/hangar are about $80, and the per hour is $49-80/hr wet depending on the plane.

 

[jspilot]

I own a 1961 Cessna 172B. It has been a great experience for myself. I am in partnership with an older guy that flies just for recreational purposes. It is a great time builder. Insurance is only 800 dollars a year which is not to bad. It has been great for me. Just find a plane that is in good shape. Have an A&P check it out before buy the plane. That is my 2 cents.

 

[s0ldier93]

goaliemn-

I've thought about clubs. I haven't looked very hard but the few I've seen in my area weren't looking for new members. Question, in your club, are you able to fly whenever you like with reasonable notice?

jspilot-

800 a year? Is the the average? I am still under 100 hours. Would I be able to find a rate like that? Or is it the partnership that brings it down?

 

[goaliemn]

goaliemn-

I've thought about clubs. I haven't looked very hard but the few I've seen in my area weren't looking for new members. Question, in your club, are you able to fly whenever you like with reasonable notice?

I haven't had any major problems. They also do all the scheduling online so you just fire up a web browser and you select the plane you want.

I'd say 95% of the time when I want to go flying, I can go. There's usually a plane available for immediate flight. i.e. at work, weather is nice.. check the website, pick a plane and go for an afternoon flight.

Best thing to do is see if they'll show you the schedule for the last month or 2. Thats what I did. Someone logged into the scheduling site and printed out acouple of months of schedules.

 

[de727ups]

152's

I owned about 5 different 150/152's and for every $1500 annual, there has been two that were only $500. Expect your first annual to be expensive as your IA fixes things that the last guy let go. One the other hand, if I didn't have a few high dollar annuals once in a while, I'd figure my mechanic was skipping over too many things. Anyhow...I just wanted to point out that not every annual is gonna cost you 2K...unless you take it to an expensive shop.

I don't know why any potential employer would look down on personal aircraft time...I've never heard of such a problem.

You could use your plane to instruct in once you get your CFI, too.

Finding a mechanic who will trade for flight time/instruction time is great...if you find such a person, take good care of them and they will can save you a lot of money and keep your plane in tip-top shape.

Don't forget to check ebay. I just saw a high engine time Tramahawk go for 14K.

 

[s0ldier93]

goaliemn-

I thanks. I'll consider the club thing a little further. I have to say though, I'm starting to like the idea of getting a small plane of my own. It's starting to bring back thoughts i had when i got my first car.

de727ups-

5-152's? Sounds like you're the person to talk to when i run into something. I have a few friends that are A&P's talked to them a few times about "test flights" around the time of maintenance. There are a number of $100 hamburger sites in the area. I'll foot the bill for lunch if it will help me save on repairs.

 

[goaliemn]

goaliemn-

I thanks. I'll consider the club thing a little further. I have to say though, I'm starting to like the idea of getting a small plane of my own. It's starting to bring back thoughts i had when i got my first car.

OH yeah. I agree. I used to think like that until I got into the club and started seing all the bills.. fuel, insurance, hangar, annuals, other assorted repairs, etc.. It adds up very quickly.

www.yankeeflyingclub.org has the bylaws and rules of the club I'm in. Check out any rules and regs of any club you get into.

 

[rltoma]

It is kinda nice, as a renter, to be able to walk away from a problem with an aircraft and just fly a different one. Not to mention that once you start flying more powerfull airplanes, you may not want to fly a 152 anymore.

 

[tataki]

Anyone knows a very good flying Club around San Francisco and the bay area?

 

[s0ldier93]

goaliemn-

Still considering the club idea. Still can't find any in my area yet (might be able to make it out to the airport tomorrow). I'm in the Hampton Roads area of VA.

I'll check out your flying club's rules tomorrow when I'm hard at work.

rltoma-

I see the "maintenance-is-my-problem" thing being a definate drawback. But, I am planing on holding anything from 3 to 5k strictly for repairs. That is reasonable for a 152 or the like right?

As for flying better plans man I hope I don't fly anything too nice in the 1.5 to 2 years I have to. I can really see myself thinking exactly want you said after renting the SR20 over at the other airport. We'll see how that works out.

 

[rltoma]

s0ldier93, I don,t know what your goals are in aviation, but if making it to an airline is your goal, imagine how much time you can buy with all the money you would spend buying, maintaining, housing, fueling, possible AD's etc. Additionally, I know that 2 yrs seems like a ways away, but trust me, you will want to fly bigger and better aircraft as time goes on. If you are looking to build time for an airline position, you'll want to get more multi-time in your logbook than anything else. Can you afford to go in partners on a twin? That would be more valuable to an employer not to mention much more usefull to you. With a twin you can actually go somewhere, which will give you more experience in various weather conditions, as well as more utility for you and your family.
I have thought about buying a 152 in the past, it is tempting, they are relatively cheap, but I would suggest that maybe getting your CFI would be a good way to build total time and then spend that hard earned cash on multi-time. Just my 2 cents, best of luck with whatever you decide. Robert

 

[tataki]

Multi time yes Multi time is so important.
I think it is a good idea to buy a cheap 152 to build time for minimums(135 minimums) and then sell it, use the downpayment for twin time.
Any comments on that?

 

[s0ldier93]

Loving the feed back!!

rltoma & tataki-

I'm hoping to be coorporate/regional someday. At the moment though, I don't know enough about the industry to say definately where I'd like to end up. I do know that after getting off active duty, finding a decent job, and finishing college (next month!!), I did well putting my foot down and saying "I want to fly and that's that!!." I understand further that doing this at 28 isn't all that shabby. I won't get into my sob story but my PPL checkride (that I've been ready for since last year) is next week sometime.

The current plan is to use the 152 to get the rest of my ratings in the 152 (IFR, CPL, CFI), and fly my butt off between training. My understanding so far is this: provided you fly over XXX hours a year, looks like 100, buying is better than renting. Since I have a full time job that gives my daylight flying time (6am-2pm), I'm thinking that I can easily complete my ratings and "just fly" for about 1.5 years.

After that, I'm thinking I'll do exactly what you said and partner up on a multi. I do a good bit of networking everytime I get to the airport and have more than a few "flying friends" lined up. Hopefully I can work something with two others. This is after selling the 152 of coarse.

 

[tataki]

Sounds like a nice plan Soldier.
Good luck to you on that. I am trying to finish my ifr and trust me its not easy when you don't have much to spend at the moment I am really asking myself if it is better at the moment to get a 152 that would cost you about 47 dollards an hour including fix and variable expenses or joining a club. For a twin engine i would defenitly pair up with some budies and get a Apache for exemple.

Where are you located?

 

[s0ldier93]

tataki-

I am in Virginia Beach, VA. Thanks for the encouragement on my (current) plan. I hope it all works out that way. But, I like flying, and I'm ready to deal with it if it doesn't. Not sure I don't think I've posted my PPL sob story on this board, but I've been kicked from several angles so far. And still, all I can think about is getting that mixture right at 4.5k feet, and falling leaf stalls to landing. (my instructor showed off on a flight or two)

I am still very interested in hearing anything negative about aircraft ownership. Please let me know if there are any holes in my plan.


goaliemn-

Still looking into the club thing. I will give it due consideration.