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Bush's Air Guard Record is Legitimate

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AlphEcho

Active member
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
33
Time to eat some crow...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040210/D80KIDJ80.html

It looks like it's time for people to eat some crow.

As a side note, when I was in college I was fortunate enough to spend some time with a guest speaker we had at an aviation club function. This guy was a hero in his own right, but he went on to tell me about his father, who was a fighter pilot in the Texas Air Guard and was GW's F102 instructor. His father liked the young Bush very much and although he, in his words, "liked to have a good time" he considered him one of the brightest pilots and most natural leaders he had ever seen. Another interesting fact was that GW's squadron was activated when he was attending OTS and basic flight school, and there was every probability that they would have been sent back to Vietnam during Bush's service length. While it so happended that the war ended before they were deployed again, it speaks to the fact that joining this squadron was not a way to hide from the war.
 
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datafox

Your website has as much credibility as you. None! :rolleyes:
 
Datafox

How do you deal with the fact that Robert Byrd criticizes Bush when Byrd is an admitted ex KKK member This is outrageous and your credibility is nil. Chas
 
its normal for guys in the reserves and guard to miss some time. It does not mean you are AWOL. Really, short of your unit being activated, there is no such thing. We had guys in my unit miss stuff all the time. Something comes up at home, or at your civilian job. Or your travel plans fall through and you can't make it. It happens. No big deal. You make it up later.
 
How do I deal with the fact Robert Byrd was a KKK member?

Easily. I forgive him.

Although I can not comprehend why anyone would want to be associated with such an inhumane organization, I also know that Mr. Byrd has countless times apologized for his involvement in the KKK.

I think ol' Mr. Byrd is probably one of the more involved senators these days for civil rights legislation.

As people age, they change and learn.

However, I don't remember Mr. Bush or Mr. Clinton apologizing for things he has done wrong in his past...except when forced to (as in Mr. Clinton's case).

Although Mr. Byrd's ancient history is revolting, I hold him in much higher regard that the past three presidents of this country.

When Bush and Clinton are truly apologetic for their actions I will forgive them too.

Datafox
 
From Washington Times Letter to Editor

'Bush and I were lieutenants'
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.
It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.
The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.
If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.
The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the Air Force or the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment was up because there just wasn't room for all of them anymore.
Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the environment of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a reservist at that time is of one who joined, went off for six months' basic training, then came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home, with two weeks of "summer camp." With the knowledge that Mr. Johnson and Mr. McNamara were not going to call out the Reserves, it did become a place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam.
There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.
The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.
Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry McAuliffe and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt. Bush abandoned his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation or authorization and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard.
Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in Alabama for a Senate campaign.
Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as I later was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire.
As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I was unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often lagged. Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into my unit to "pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too involved with him because I would have a lot more important things on my table keeping the unit combat ready.
Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts:
First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill assembly — the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.
If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.
Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.
Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career parallels Lt. Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying air-defense missions.
While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in showing that the Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the first team in the total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan and Iraq.
In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends who want to slander the Guard: Knock it off.

COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
 
It is highly likely that Bush weaseled out of his guard duties. So what? Move on people! This was a long time ago. He is a different person now. Judge him and all other candidates on what they have done in recent history. I define recent as the past 10-15 years. Quit judging people for what they may have done in their 20's. Say Kerry comes out and says he smoked pot in Vietnam. Who gives a sh!t. I would think the same if Bush made the same statement.

There are plenty of reasons not to like either candidate and politics in general. It is say what they want to hear time, i.e. election season.
 
Flint, well said and thank you setting the record straight.

As a fighter pilot on board the USS Lincoln for 10 months I was personally thankful that the President (who made the decision to put us in harms way), had the common courtesy to come out and shake our hands for a job well done. A media stunt? isn't everything in politics a media stunt? Heck, each pilot was "assigned" a reporter during the war so the people back home didn't miss out on any video. No one was made to go on deck and be with the president, that was just pure respect for a good leader (I didn't say great, or the best ever.....that may come later). The carrier wasn't held up for a day for this to happen. Squadrons fly off the day prior to port to clear the flight deck for the off load. That is why you will notice all of the pilots wearing their flight gear while shaking the presidents hand. they manned up their jets and took the last "cat" (catapult launch) back home. Just wanted to set the record straight...

Thank you for your time and patience.
 
azpilot said:
Say Kerry comes out and says he smoked pot in Vietnam.

...or had a mistress :eek:
 
azpilot said:
It is highly likely that Bush weaseled out of his guard duties. So what? Move on people! This was a long time ago...
If yo'll agree to make the same statement about Clinton's draft-dodging, then a statement like that might have some credibility.

Clinton and Bush did exactly the same thing during Vietnam. Bush just found a classier way to do it. He may have brought a degree of respect back to the White House, but let's not pretend he's any less a draft-dodger than Clinton or Quayle.
 
Wow, you equate fleeing the country to evade the draft the 'exact same thing' as entering the Air National Guard. I guess my dad evaded the 'real' military service by being an enlisted officer in the Guard for the past 35 years. You make me sick
 
Typhoon1244 said:

Clinton and Bush did exactly the same thing during Vietnam. Bush just found a classier way to do it. He may have brought a degree of respect back to the White House, but let's not pretend he's any less a draft-dodger than Clinton or Quayle.

So joining the Guard is now considered "draft-dodging"? Too bad my father isn't here to discuss this one with you. He joined the Guard right out of high school in the spring of '50 during peacetime, and within a year was freezing in in the hills of Korea fighting North Koreans and Chinese with a BAR in hand. Yeah, I would've loved to have witnessed that debate as you tried to "educate" him about how the Guard equates to shirking duty or represents some sort of safe zone.

Well, it's usually the REMFs who spout about Guard duty not being "real" anway.
 
Cannot sit idly by.

Typhoon1244 said:

Clinton and Bush did exactly the same thing during Vietnam. ...let's not pretend he's any less a draft-dodger than Clinton or Quayle.

Alright, I can’t take it anymore. Usually, I just read this forum for a good laugh or maybe to learn something occasionally. I rarely post, but I can’t believe this thread. Typhoon, as a reservist, I find your remarks inflammatory and infuriating. You have lost all credibility in this argument. How is flying fighters for the guard and fleeing your country to protest on foreign soil the exact same thing? You can hate President Bush, I don’t care. But do not degrade thousands of my fellow guardsmen and reservist’s service to this country by equating us to the “exact same thing" as a draft-dodging traitor Clinton.

Also, for you folks who have no idea how the guard and reserves work- You CAN NOT
be AWOL from the guard or reserves unless you’re activated. I can choose not to show up for the next 3 years (if my unit does not activate) with out any disciplinary actions taken against me. The years I miss will not count towards my 20 for retirement, but I won’t be AWOL. I can miss drills and physicals and whatever, it only hurts my pay and retirement; I won’t go to Leavenworth.

I’m back to the sidelines.

Maybe I can find a political forum where they talk about flying.
 
Re: Cannot sit idly by.

slacker said:
How is flying fighters for the guard and fleeing your country to protest on foreign soil the exact same thing?

It's not exactly the same thing. I think Clinton's letter to the ROTC was more forthright.

Bush's Duty, and Privilege
By BOB HERBERT

Published: February 13, 2004
E-mail: [email protected]

James Moore, an author and former Texas television reporter who has spent many years following the fortunes of George W. Bush, often tells the story of a gifted high school athlete from Flint, Mich., named Roy Dukes.

"I ran track against him," Mr. Moore said. "He went to Flint Southwestern High School, and he was amazing."

That was back in the late 1960's. When Roy Dukes strode onto the track for an event, said Mr. Moore, he drew everyone's attention, especially other athletes'. "They stopped their warm-ups or whatever they were doing to watch him because he was just phenomenal."

Mr. Moore lost track of Mr. Dukes for a couple of years. "And then I come home from college one weekend and I open up the paper and there's Roy's picture. He was killed in Vietnam. I was just flabbergasted."

Mr. Moore explores the murky circumstances surrounding President Bush's service in the National Guard in the late 60's and early 70's in a book that is soon to be published called "Bush's War for Re-election." This issue remains pertinent because it foreshadowed Mr. Bush's behavior as a politician and officeholder: the lack of engagement, the irresponsibility, and the casual and blatantly unfair exploitation of rank and privilege.

Mr. Bush favored the war in Vietnam, but he had the necessary clout to ensure that he wouldn't have to serve there. He entered the Texas Air National Guard at the height of the war in 1968 by leaping ahead of 500 other applicants who were on a waiting list.

Mr. Bush was eventually assigned to the 147th Fighter Group (later to become part of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Group), which Mr. Moore described in his book as a "champagne" outfit. "The ranks," he said, "were filled with the progeny of the wealthy and politically influential."

So here's the thing: After strolling to the head of the line, and putting the Guard to the considerable expense of training him as a pilot, Lieutenant Bush didn't even bother to take his duties seriously. He breezed off to Alabama to work on a political campaign. He never showed up as required to take his annual flight physical in 1972, and because of that was suspended from flying.

This cavalier treatment of his duties as a Guardsman occurred as thousands of others were being killed and wounded in Vietnam — youngsters of great promise like Roy Dukes, who was 20 when he died. Having escaped the horror of the war himself, one might have expected Lieutenant Bush to at least take his duties in the National Guard seriously.

Now, more than three decades later, there are questions about the seriousness of Mr. Bush's stewardship as president. He has certainly been profligate with the people's money, pushing through his reckless tax cuts and running up a mountain range of deficits that extends as far as the eye can see.

Citing phantom weapons of mass destruction, he led the nation into a war of choice that has resulted so far in the tragic deaths of more than 500 American troops and thousands of innocent Iraqis, and the wounding of thousands upon thousands of others. Like Mr. Bush during Vietnam, privileged Americans have had the luxury of favoring the madness in Iraq without having to worry about fighting and dying there. If the sons and daughters of the wealthy and powerful were in danger of being sent to Iraq, the U.S. wouldn't be there.

Neither Congress nor the American people are being told in a timely way how much this war is costing. But powerfully connected corporations like Halliburton and Bechtel have been kept deep inside the loop and favored with lucrative no-bid contracts for their services.

Mr. Bush has been nothing if not consistent. He has always been about the privileged few. And that's an attitude that flies in the face of the basic precepts of an egalitarian society. It's an attitude that fosters, that celebrates, unfairness and injustice.

More than 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam, another war of choice that was marketed deceitfully to the American people.

Mr. Bush's experience in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam years is especially relevant today because it throws a brighter spotlight on who he really is. He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way.
 
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chperplt said:
IF it's legitimate, why won't his commanding officers verify to the media that he never went AWOL?

Because the commanding officer that they interviewed was in charge of over a thousand people on that base. It would be pretty hard for him to notice one officer, particularly then when President Bush, was nothing more than 1LT Bush, another testosterone driven fighter pilot under his command.

And the second part of the quote that every person that reports that the CO didn't see him was (paraphrased been a while since I have seen the story):
I'm not even sure I was on the base then.
 

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