Bush is teaching Labor a lesson!!!!!!!!!

[Soupbone]

the Bible

Actually I tried to start a new thread since this is the last page on this one. Anyway,
I will just start out commenting on your thought that the Bible might be exagerated or made up or people lied etc... All I can say to that is...The Bible was written by more than 40 people over 1500 years from all walks of life. Poor, rich, educated and uneducated. Yet from beginning to end it is consistant and in perfect agreement. If an author did those things then it would not have been so. It does take faith, but from a bibliographic, internal, and external test...no other book in history can compare.
Usually I am content to read all these threads and enjoy most of them. But the things Hawker and some others were saying had to be addressed.

"Game on" ...TX and others....
(from Wayne's World...for those slow people in the audience)

 

[PCL_128]

What does being a scab have to do with religion one way or the other??? Just curious about the analogy...

SCABS are devoid of morality and decency. They stab their friends in the back just for their own financial and career gains. They care about no one but themselves. Kind of flies in the face of what Christianity is all about if you ask me.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Re: the Bible

I will just start out commenting on your thought that the Bible might be exagerated or made up or people lied etc... All I can say to that is...The Bible was written by more than 40 people over 1500 years from all walks of life. Poor, rich, educated and uneducated. Yet from beginning to end it is consistant and in perfect agreement. If an author did those things then it would not have been so. It does take faith, but from a bibliographic, internal, and external test...no other book in history can compare.

Consistent and in perfect agreement? What exactly is consistent and in perfect agreement? In the old testament god destroys entire cities, heck he even destroys every living thing on earth except for noah and his family and the animals on the arc. And in the new testament he becomes the god of love (John 3:16 for example)? That does not seem consistent to me when considered objectively.

In fact, I would bet that if we made up some other deity from a mythology story somewhere about a god who wiped out all of the inhabitants of the world we would look at that story and say "wow, I am sure glad that the real god wouldn't do anything like that." Its funny how christianity gives people rose colored glasses through which to view bible stories.

And while we're on the "in perfect agreement" subject, what was Jesus doing during the mssing years? I would contend that if the bible were perfectly consistent it would have recorded JC's whole life.

To crystalize my reponse to you on the "in perfect agreement" subject, I think the bible is not really consistent and in perfect agreement - and that you think so because you see it from a "self proving" standpoint. To an external obersever the image is somewhat different.

Originally posted by Soupbone
Usually I am content to read all these threads and enjoy most of them. But the things Hawker and some others were saying had to be addressed.

"Game on" ...TX and others....
(from Wayne's World...for those slow people in the audience)

I agree that Hawker F/O needed a response, maybe he doesn't want to get wrapped up in this other subject. If so, I am willing to discuss his original post with him.

 

[Soupbone]

Ok TX,
sorry not to clarify earlier...consistancy and accuracy I am talking about is ...does a book in the OT disagree with a book in the NT or vice-versa, since there were 100's of prophecies that the NT fulfilled. One of the test to verify this is the internal test. Now that may appear to be circular reasoning but far from it. We are examining the truth claims of the authors and allowing them to speak for themselves. Most were written by eyewitnesses and completed by 70 AD. Therefore, when the NT started circulating numerous people would have challenged the blatant fabrications. Again, that is just one test and trying to condense an entire book about the reliability into a paragraph is somewhat difficult. You mention self-proving. The Bible is not just a prophecy book, it is a history book. Nothing written (in the form of history is in question) but people love to doubt the rest of the words in it.

Now to address your thread specifically...God never changes. He is a righteous God who hates sin. Before Christ (ie. grace), yes He destroyed entire cities because of their unrighteousness. But the thing you forget is in those cicumstances He could not find ONE just person, just one and he would have spared it. (example...Noah, Jonah(used to spare an entire city) just to name 2) Now grace of JC is on us, but that does not mean He has changed somehow. One final thought...people love to think of God as a "loving" God because they hate to think otherwise, but choose to forget His righteousness that comes from being a Holy God.

 

[cocknbull]

I left this thread two days ago and it seems we are now talking about religion. I myself do not have a religous background. However I do know that something must first be created before it can evolve. In other words nothing can evolve from nothing. God created something then it evolved. However one chooses to believe in god and faith is their right. Regardless of their position in society. In other words if President Bush wants to pray or study the bible that is just fine with me. As long as it is not ment to put someone elses opions or beliefs down. The thing about religion that upstets me is when a religion requires you to not respect others and their beliefs. I remember being in High school and getting pissed when a girl refused to stand for the pledge. She said her religion prevented her from doing so. The bottom line is you stand out of respect for the flag and what it symbolizes. I need not remind peolpe that the red symbolizes blood. The blood of men and women who fought to defend our freedoms. The freedom to practice religion however you see fit. Not standing to respect that is treason.

 

[TXCAP4228]

sorry not to clarify earlier...consistancy and accuracy I am talking about is ...does a book in the OT disagree with a book in the NT or vice-versa, since there were 100's of prophecies that the NT fulfilled. One of the test to verify this is the internal test. Now that may appear to be circular reasoning but far from it. We are examining the truth claims of the authors and allowing them to speak for themselves. Most were written by eyewitnesses and completed by 70 AD.

1) Prophecies. Lots of people write prophecies and lots of people see the fulfilment of them, but that doesn't make any of them true.
-Astrology. My X grilfriend was convinced that the astrology prophecies in the newpapers and magazines were true - and I am sure you would agree that astrology is really just a bunch of gibberish. So why is the fulfillment of those prohecies any different than yours?

-Other religions prophecies. How about this, the Greeks has Oracles and prophets that they believed - does that mean we ought to be worshiping Zeus?

-Nostradamus - this guy wrote prophecies that many people think are fulfilled, were they?

One man's (or woman's since we are equall oportunity here) prophecy is another's mythology.

2) Eyewitnesses. The eyewitness accounts of JC were written within 70 years of his death.... One of the least reliable sources of information is an eyewitness. Heck, I can find eyewitnesses who have seen Elvis and Santa Clause, and even some who were kidnapped by aliens.

Additionaly, I can show the same group of ten people something and then 20 minutes later get 10 widely divergent summaries of what I showed them.

Now, add 20, 30, or 70 years to that and now how much credibility do we really have?

Now to address your thread specifically...God never changes. He is a righteous God who hates sin. Before Christ (ie. grace), yes He destroyed entire cities because of their unrighteousness. But the thing you forget is in those cicumstances He could not find ONE just person, just one and he would have spared it. (example...Noah, Jonah(used to spare an entire city) just to name 2) Now grace of JC is on us, but that does not mean He has changed somehow. One final thought...people love to think of God as a "loving" God because they hate to think otherwise, but choose to forget His righteousness that comes from being a Holy God.

1) Would a truly righteous god need to find anyone to spare the world? This sort of contradicts the "turn the other cheek" philosophy that JC taught later.
2) (This next statement would have been called blasphemy 1000 years ago) Would an all powerful god have made the mistake of creating people that were not righteous - which would force him to destroy them?
3) Finally, to say that god is a "righteous" god means either that the meaning of good and evil are anterior to him (and that he is therefore not all powerful) ot it means that he sort of arbitrarily defined good and evil to fit his needs and then destroyed all of those people based on what amounted to his whim. If you accept the biblical god you describe then there are really only two ways to look at it. Neither possibility compels me to believe.

 

[Soupbone]

That was a strange post, usually it is harder to answer your questions. Here goes...
No other book in the world contains the kind of specific prophecies found throughout the Bible. Their is no comparison to Nostradamus or Cleo...Most are vague and cryptic and could be fulfilled in numerous ways, but the Bible's were so clear that only JC could have fulfilled them all. The OT prophets gave short and long term prophecies so that the undisputed fullfillment of the short term would authenticate the long term ones.
As far as eyewitness you are most certainly correct...except for the fact that 10 people say 10 different thing... In this case 10 people say exactly the same thing!
Next...God creating a "mistake" of sinful people. Remember Adam was sinless...until he had the free choice to sin. If God did not give him free choice (or us) then we are just robots. I for one am glad he gave us a choice.
As far as #3...I just don't understand your point?? But I will say this. The divine attributs of God (holy and righteous) are complementary not contradictory. His wrath is never random, but always directed against sin.

 

[TXCAP4228]

That was a strange post, usually it is harder to answer your questions.

Yes it was. I think that is because I wasn't intending to challenge directly, but only to show alternate ways of looking at what you believe.

On the prophecies we will have to agree to disagree. Lots of religions have prophecies that they are convinced make them right. That was the point of my post before.

As far as eyewitness you are most certainly correct...except for the fact that 10 people say 10 different thing... In this case 10 people say exactly the same thing!

Well, if you are referring to the life of JC, rarely do any of the gospels describe the same accounts of the same things. Sometimes one event may be described by two, but usually not more than that. It is hard to really compare these eyewitness accounts for that reason. So, you can't really say that 10 people saw the same things.

Also, the other thing I mentioned before are the missing years. Aren't you a little puzzled about the teenage Jesus? I also wondered about that even when I did believe.

I for one am glad he gave us a choice.

I may not be smiling about it if I am wrong, but it was just a harder choice for me to believe than it was for most people. In fact I started out believing and wound up changing my mind.

As far as #3...I just don't understand your point?? But I will say this. The divine attributs of God (holy and righteous) are complementary not contradictory. His wrath is never random, but always directed against sin.

That number three took me years to really articulate and come to grips with. There's no easy way to explain it.

Are you still in the service?

 

[RightPedal]

I love a good Bible debate and this has been enjoyable to say the least. Thank You!
And to all of you who do not believe, you keep searching that book for fuel for the debate. There's magic in there.
Merry Christmas to all!

I can say that right? lol..

 

[Timebuilder]

It isn't illegal to say it, yet.

Merry Christmas.