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Buffalo accident not expensive enough

Sig

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It would be really interesting to identify those 44 airline lobbyists ...

It isn't really interesting, and it's phenomenally simple.

RAA

ATA

Follow the links, do an industry search, put it away if you take it out and wash your hands.

I'd suggest looking at FedEX and UPS. Follow the money...
 

densoo

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You may want Colgan families to do our work for us, but that's wrong and naive. It's our bodies, our sleep, and our problem.
It appears those families are the only ones keeping this issue on the front burner. ATA wants to stop it, ALPA is operating in normal channels, everyone else wants to slow-roll it.
 

Flyer1015

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Those two weren't tired because of current rest rules, and it was their first operating flight of the day. Let's cut that BS. She was dead tired because she was flying with a cold (violating a FAR) and because she commuted in the night before. Sorry, but my idea of "sleep" doesn't involve the back of two different MD11s on 3 hr flights through the night. Same for him, tough commute and lack of sleep in crew rooms. I've tried sleeping in a crew room, and that's hardly what I'd consider "rest."
 

Flyer1015

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• Ensure that pilots have nine hours of rest prior to duty, up from eight hours.
I already get 9 hrs rest (scheduled) prior to duty for any trip/overnight. This is already in our pilot contract.

• Establish a new way of measuring the rest period that would make sure pilots have the opportunity to sleep for eight hours before a flight.
It just ain't gonna happen. I have many days when I finish by noon to 2pm, and then have a 5:30 am show for a 6am flight. I'm required to be up at 4:30am on some mornings. That would mean I'd have to be physically asleep by 8:30pm the night before. No way, it isn't happening. Your body circadian rhythm cannot adapt to changes overnight like that. Because consider that the trip had a check in of 11:00am the first day, and you worked til midnight, and then rest until 9am and work until 1pm. Now, you have a 4:30am wakeup call the next day. Your body can't just "fall asleep" 8 hrs before your flight because of that pattern change.

• Guarantee pilots 30 consecutive hours off every week— a 25 percent increase.
The above will do NOTHING to improve rest or safety. If anything, it will change trips to be less efficent, work the same or longer duty days for less block.

• Set weekly and monthly limits on flight duty time.
Already have 'em. 1000 in a year and 100 in a month. And 30 in 7. In fact, there are times that 30 in 7 has actually harmed my schedule, by forcing me to be removed from flights and worked more hours on duty to do flights that were less in block time.
 

waveflyer

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Flyer1015-
That's a ridiculous post except for the dumbest among us. By all means- connect the dots-
Based in NYC, the 8th most expensive city in the world - there are limited options at that pay- and fatigue is cumulative. I've lived every bad schedule out there- and they are blatantly and scientifically unsafe. My own blood pressure dropped 20 points after 6 months of the consistent WN schedules.
I'm sorry- but pilots have gotten used to a lifestyle that is incredibly bad for their long term health. And there's no great resin for it. There are 3rd world countries with more scientifically valid fatigue rules.
 

Flyer1015

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Flyer1015-
That's a ridiculous post except for the dumbest among us. By all means- connect the dots-
Based in NYC, the 8th most expensive city in the world - there are limited options at that pay- and fatigue is cumulative. I've lived every bad schedule out there- and they are blatantly and scientifically unsafe. My own blood pressure dropped 20 points after 6 months of the consistent WN schedules.
I'm sorry- but pilots have gotten used to a lifestyle that is incredibly bad for their long term health. And there's no great resin for it. There are 3rd world countries with more scientifically valid fatigue rules.
Forcing an overnight commute on Fedex is just setting YOURSELF for failure and fatigue.
 

densoo

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Flyer1015, is your contractual 9 hour rest block to block, or behind the door (as the new rest rule would mandate)?
 

Flyer1015

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Flyer1015, is your contractual 9 hour rest block to block, or behind the door (as the new rest rule would mandate)?

Scheduled, block to block.

However, there is also a contractual provision that gives us a pretty close to 'behind-the-door.' If you get to the hotel, and at that point, you are at min rest minus 15 minutes or more, then you delay the flight in the morning to ensure you are at least min rest minus 15 minutes for the overnight. For example, suppose your min rest tonight is 9 hrs. Due to delays, traffic, long van ride, etc, you get to the hotel, and now only have 8 hrs and 20 minutes. Since min rest was 9 hrs, min rest minus 15 would be 8:45. Since you're at 8:20, your flight can be delayed 25 minutes so you still get 8:45 rest.

We can basically get min rest minus 15 minutes behind door.

As I said, close enough, it's good for me. Any changes in rest rules besides from the current FARs and our contractual CBA (great rules already in it) will result in less efficient trips, that will mean working more days, and overall in the month, I will feel fatigued for working more days for the same amount of flying as now.
 

COOPERVANE

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Well, that is GREAT for YOU. But there are others in this industry that are SCHEDULED 8 hours rest. You KNOW that results in about 6-6-1/2 hours of sleep.

Dont just think of yourself
 

densoo

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Flyer1015, glad you have some contractual protections. At one major, it is FAR and little more. A 30 minute wait for transport is part of the rest. A delay at hotel is part of rest. Dinner is part of rest. Breakfast is part of rest. 30 minute showtime at gate is part of rest. One hour van is part of rest. The only thing that isn't part of rest is adequate sleep. The only recourse to inadequate rest is calling fatigued, no pay. This rest rule is needed for the rest of us. Don't worry though. I understand there are provisions in the rule to waive your rest.
 
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Bringupthebird

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This raises a valid question: If pilots choose pay over schedules when contract time comes around, are they giving tacit approval to FAR scheduling? Does this undermine the safety argument? Are pilots expecting congress to be their contract negotiators?
 

Dumb Pilot

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This raises a valid question: If pilots choose pay over schedules when contract time comes around, are they giving tacit approval to FAR scheduling? Does this undermine the safety argument? Are pilots expecting congress to be their contract negotiators?

What I don't understand is why pilots are so convinced that one could not be had with the other.
 

Flyer1015

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Well, that is GREAT for YOU. But there are others in this industry that are SCHEDULED 8 hours rest. You KNOW that results in about 6-6-1/2 hours of sleep.

Dont just think of yourself

I apologize for not knowing. Our old contract (1999-2011) had the same. I thought the 2007 ASA contract might have been a tad bit better on the rest rules, but I suppose not. Good luck on the negotiations, hopefully you guys can get something a little better.
 

eaglesview

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How abot the fact that the report sights "continental 3407" as the flight in question. I didn't realize Continetal flew that flight???? How about the lack of experience going back on the front burner and call it what it is, a flight flown by a company that offered to do it for less and looks at the bottom line long before safety. "They met all the FAA requirements" is a joke of an excuse. The accident should never of happened, fatigue was certainly not the reason. for it.
 

densoo

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call it what it is, a flight flown by a company that offered to do it for less and looks at the bottom line long before safety. "They met all the FAA requirements" is a joke of an excuse. The accident should never of happened, fatigue was certainly not the reason. for it.
+1

A huge part of the savings comes from having no liability for the accident, both the premiums before and the litigation after.

Returning this liability to the parent company would do a lot to lessen the cost advantage of outsourcing.
 
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EWR_FO

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+1

A huge part of the savings comes from having no liability for the accident, both the premiums before and the litigation after.

Returning this liability to the parent company would do a lot to lessen the cost advantage of outsourcing.

What he said, it's ALL about liability=cost.
 
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