"Breadth of Experience"....how much is needed?

[JSky26]

Here is an interesting debate I have been having with a few buddies.

Some of this has been discussed already on this board so I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here.

Before one's advancement to a regional carrier, is it necessary to fly 135 singlie pilot freight stuff? Should you feel cheated if you don't? From my understanding, it is part of the whole process in paying your dues. I know now that there are many loopholes where people are getting hired on with real low time, but it seems like they are missing out on the experience of shooting low approaches, having an emergency, basically making decisions on your own that might scare the sh$t outta you. Getting that good ole' boy aviator intuition.... Basically so the captain at the regional carrier doesn't have to babysit you for the first couple months on the job.

Would it be different if you were hired on at a 121 prop outfit like Skyway, Colgan or GLA? Would that kind of flying allow that breadth of experience to be built or is that all overated BS?

It seems like the low time new hires sitting right seat on jets aren't gettng that true experience of aviating.

My whole perception could be totally wrong though....comments anyone?

 

[DrProc]

This has been my experience, so far in my career. I did banner towing, dropped skydivers, flight instructing and flew charter in biz jets before I went to the regionals. When I got to the regionals, I realized two things, if I would have gone right into the regionals when I was done flight instructing, I would be a captain at that point, but I would not have a lot of diversified experience. Typically people that go into the regionals right away, get bored of flying quickly and don't have any stories to tell. I could always tell when I flew with an "academy grad" because they had no idea what it was like on the other side. So, to answer your question, paying your dues, will allow you to be calm when the FMS dies in the RJ, or you have to divert with min fuel, but your friends that took "the easy way" may be worked up more in one of these situations, but they will be a captain by this point. And besides, you will have more stories to tell, which is the most important thing...

 

[FN FAL]

Here is an interesting debate I have been having with a few buddies.

Some of this has been discussed already on this board so I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here.

Before one's advancement to a regional carrier, is it necessary to fly 135 singlie pilot freight stuff? Should you feel cheated if you don't? From my understanding, it is part of the whole process in paying your dues. I know now that there are many loopholes where people are getting hired on with real low time, but it seems like they are missing out on the experience of shooting low approaches, having an emergency, basically making decisions on your own that might scare the sh$t outta you. Getting that good ole' boy aviator intuition.... Basically so the captain at the regional carrier doesn't have to babysit you for the first couple months on the job.

Would it be different if you were hired on at a 121 prop outfit like Skyway, Colgan or GLA? Would that kind of flying allow that breadth of experience to be built or is that all overated BS?

It seems like the low time new hires sitting right seat on jets aren't gettng that true experience of aviating.

My whole perception could be totally wrong though....comments anyone?

There is no "dues paying process". Either you possess the flight experience necessary to compete for a particular job or you don't.

The FAA requirements for right seat in a 747 are met when you leave the schoolhouse with your commercial multi-engine instrument and a second class medical.

 

[Cardinal]

I've been pondering this lately myself. I'm coming from the ghetto B1900 operator perspective, though prior to this I briefly sampled a small amount of the single-pilot freight dog action.

Firstly, there is no way you can teach the high-level decision making skills by 300 hours. You CAN train a pretty good stick, who can fly a mean ILS in that timeframe, however. So I don't have a principled objection to a low-time, well trained First Officer, in the TProp or Jet operation.

The single-pilot 135 stuff is hardcore. It teaches the instrument skills, and the life or death, on your own decision making. From the perpective of education, watching decisions being made is no substitute for going out on a limb, making the call, and reaping the aftermath on your own. That's where the freight dogs really benefit.

The best FO I think I've flown with in the last year came from this background, after a slew of low-timers. He was ready for upgrade after a few months online - all he needed was to see the specifics of the operation, know the airplane and he was ready. He's currently in upgrade ground school, after a whole 7 months as an FO, and I have every confidence that he will succeed.

Yet after a few years at the TProp operator, with a solid base of experience in the left seat, even the low-time individual will have encountered most of the scenarios found in the 135 world - Ice, +TSRA with poor radar, handflying in IMC for hours on end, circling non-precision approaches to craphole cities after a long day with an effectively useless First Officer, aircraft held together with speed tape, equipment abnormals and full blown emergencies. All that WILL happen if you put your time in at these small operators. As you say, I scare the sh$t outta myself every couple months.

I do feel that the pilot that goes straight from 400 mostly VFR hours to the Jet realm misses a slice of the flying world. Probably not the end of the world, and they can go on to have a long, safe career.

From the Airline's perspective however, If I make an atrocious decision that ends in an unneccesary diversion, an out of position aircraft or cancellation we have only sacrificed the 3 people who wanted to go to BFE today on the altar of my inexperience. If the new CRJ700 captain makes a similarly bad call, it's 70 people, first class frequent fliers, and a heck of alot of revenue that has been impacted. More difficult to simply "chalk it up to experience."

Conclusion? Personally, I figure I'll have my whole career to monitor an autopilot. For now I'll enjoy get my hands dirty. Your mileage may vary. Incidentally, excellent question, JSky - I wish more would ask it.

 

[JSky26]

Thanks for the insight guys. When it comes down to it, I think I would take the experience over the paycheck. But I know some may disagree with that. I'd like some stories to tell, that's all...

Cardinal,

Funny that you mentioned that you fly the 1900 because my current instructor flew for Lakes for 5 years. We had the same conversation today and he really experienced it all. It sounds like a blast to fly...

 

[FN FAL]

Thanks for the insight guys. When it comes down to it, I think I would take the experience over the paycheck. But I know some may disagree with that.

What paycheck are you talking bout? That 500 take home every two weeks at the regionals?

Now there's an experience I tells ya...let's see, pay the car payment this month or eat?

You guys got nobody to blame for the demise of this industry but yourselves.

 

[JSky26]

"You phlegm suckers got nobody to blame for the demise of this industry but yourselves."

FN FAL,

I'm just trying to look for some advice from you guys, thats all...please don't take my words harshly. Is there a solution to the demise of this industry? For someone getting into the industry on an entry level position, how can they not expect to get paid crap wages if they want/need a job in order to gain experience to continue on to the next level? I wouldn't call that scabbing out the industry...or is it?

 

[FN FAL]

"You phlegm suckers got nobody to blame for the demise of this industry but yourselves."

FN FAL,

I'm just trying to look for some advice from you guys, thats all...please don't take my words harshly. Is there a solution to the demise of this industry? For someone getting into the industry on an entry level position, how can they not expect to get paid crap wages if they want/need a job in order to gain experience to continue on to the next level? I wouldn't call that scabbing out the industry...or is it?

What is the next level? Airtran? Jet Blue? Southwest? Yippie. A decade from now or sooner they will be competing with the newest fad in aviation... XLC's or extra low cost carriers.

My first CFI job paid $1900.00 for 20 days of work per month...

My first 135 job flying piston twins started at about 35,000.00...by my second year that job was paying almost 40K.

My first 121 job paid less than a grand a month.

My second 135 job starting pay was almost 33K and in my 5th year I will be Making 43,000.00 a year for a 10 day a month job with no weekends, no nights, no overnights, no cell phone needed because the job is scheduled.

What was your question again? Something about a "process", that there is some process of jumping around? There is no process, either you're qualified enough to compete against applicants for a particular job or you are not.

Read again...you meet all the qualifications to hire into the right seat of a 747 the minute you got your commercial multi instrument in your hands.

 

[Lead Sled]

I think that to one degree or another it depends upon what your career goals are. If you're one of those guys that feel that they're only going to be happy if they land a job at the majors then by all means get there as soon as you can - seniority is everything. However, I'm not one of those guys.

When I look for pilots I look for guys who have been "around the block" at time or two. There is not really a magic number of hours that a person has to have in their log book - one of the best pilots I've known had around 2,500 hours when I hired him and I've known 7,000 guys that couldn't hack it. I believe that there is a big difference between 1,000 hours of experience and 1 hour of experience repeated 1,000 times. High-time CFI's tend to fall into the latter category. Personally, what I like to see are guys who have a solid background in single-pilot freight or charter. Although these are definately not the glamour jobs, those guys quickly learn what it is to go around the block a few times. A few years of that kind of flying and they're ready for almost anything else that comes along. It only gets easier from that point.

Experience doesn't make you manipulate the controls better, it allows you to fly smarter. We only hire smart pilots.

'Sled