Boeing to shut down C-17 production

[Otto]

Here's the link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060817/boeing_cargo_plane.html?.v=3

I'm sure this is just a scare tactic by boeing to force congress to cough up money for more airplanes. Still you have to wonder why the Air Force is screwing every other project in the works in order to fund the F-22. Don't get me wrong, the F-22 is clearly a great airplane but it seems to be misplaced priorities. We have a very real need and shortage of heavy airlift out there and the Air Force's solution is to fund a fighter?? The last time I checked there haven't been many air-to-air dogfights with Al-Qaeda. I know there are superior aircraft with other countires (eg. SU-27) but I'm always a believer that superior training will defeat a more advanced aircraft. What do some of you fighter guys think? Is the F-22 desperately needed or does the brass just want the latest toy??

 

[SIG600]

Yes we need the F-22 IMHO... in so many ways it hurts. But ya the AF needs heavy lift too. If superior training can overcome superior technology, then why aren't we still running around in F-86's? Bad analogy. Their ARE other countries out there with equal or better stuff, that train to our tactics, timelines, etc. If the day ever comes I'm at a merge with a SU-27 though, the only thing thats gonna save me is the other guy not being as good!

 

[Mongoose69]

News flash:

The AF has already purchased 76+ Raptors. They are not screwing other flying programs/aircraft to "purchase more Raptors". Currently, they are only slotted for 170 some total aircraft, and the production line is supposed to be shut down after 2007 or so. Now, ask yourself this. How are 200 (rounding up) Raptors supposed to replace 600+ F-15Cs? Answer: They can't. Count up how many AEFs there are, and how many Raptor squadron's there are going to be. I guarantee you they won't match. Hrm....

Mongoose

 

[CobraKai]

How many slick F-15s are fighting the war right now? How many Heavies?

The AEF only works for ACC type aircraft and the support troops. I would wager 99% of AMC pilots couldn't even tell you what AEF they are assigned to, because they never go out on the cycle.

The point is the AF needs some of everything. We needed the C-17 becuase we flew the Sh!t out of the 141s in Nam and the first gulf war. We are now doing the same thing with the -135s, -130s and yes even the C-17s.

So what should the priority be

 

[dtfl]

If the day ever comes I'm at a merge with a SU-27 though, the only thing thats gonna save me is the other guy not being as good!

Or an SU 37? Saw the demo at Aero India last year - impressive to say the least - and Russia is selling those.
I agree with you - people seem to forget China and N Korea and a lot of other countries have decent Migs and Sus in their inventory.

 

[Scrapdog]

Here's the link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060817/boeing_cargo_plane.html?.v=3

I'm sure this is just a scare tactic by boeing to force congress to cough up money for more airplanes. Still you have to wonder why the Air Force is screwing every other project in the works in order to fund the F-22. Don't get me wrong, the F-22 is clearly a great airplane but it seems to be misplaced priorities. We have a very real need and shortage of heavy airlift out there and the Air Force's solution is to fund a fighter?? The last time I checked there haven't been many air-to-air dogfights with Al-Qaeda. I know there are superior aircraft with other countires (eg. SU-27) but I'm always a believer that superior training will defeat a more advanced aircraft. What do some of you fighter guys think? Is the F-22 desperately needed or does the brass just want the latest toy??

Otto - great question...I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing (as did I). However, here's the point that I think makes it clear - the F-22 is a fighter that's going to give us awesome capabilities for very high potential threats in the NEAR and LONG TERM future! On an unclass level, the F-22 is kick a$$ when it's full up, plain and simple - especially in it's stealth regime. Do we need solid airlift support, of course...I'm not trying to take away from that at all - however I think the AF visionaries have done a great job with projecting what's going to keep the US safe down the road for years to come and the F-22 is an outstanding fighter to do that. We need to fund the F-22 and hopefully the buy will increase from the current projection of 170 plus. The F-22 gives the US the upper hand for years to come, it's not just a band aid for the next few years.

 

[SIG600]

^^^^Well said...

Just because slick F-15's aren't taking the fight to the bad guys right now... that means we're supposed to give up on planning for the future? The capabilities of China alone (and what their becoming) is enough to make me lose sleep at night.

 

[JimNtexas]

There is no way the requirement for F-22s exceeds 200. We have the F-35 in the pipeline, a much more sensible platform, and one in which the pilot need not be present in the airplane.

Boeing has proposed updated F-15's as a gap filler between the F-22 and the F-35. That's very sensible. You can buy a boatload of F-15s for the price of one F-22.

The USAF requirement for large numbers of F-22s is ego driven entirely.

 

[Huggyu2]

#1. Do not believe that it's all about "capability". With the amount of money involved in the F-22 and it's technologies, there are a lot of politics involved, and folks do not want to lose out.
#2. The F-22 program works out to somewhere around $250M per jet. What if the cost was $500M? How about $1B? At what point do we decide "it's too much; too expensive"? For me, we've exceeded that point. Obviously, many of you disagree and think the cost is justified.

 

[Scrapdog]

There is no way the requirement for F-22s exceeds 200. We have the F-35 in the pipeline, a much more sensible platform, and one in which the pilot need not be present in the airplane.

Boeing has proposed updated F-15's as a gap filler between the F-22 and the F-35. That's very sensible. You can buy a boatload of F-15s for the price of one F-22.

The USAF requirement for large numbers of F-22s is ego driven entirely.

Jim - I will just play devil's advocate here based on data that I've heard both from F-22 guys themselves (both fighting against them and BS'ing with them) as well as a lot friends that currently work at the Pentagon and the NGB. The F-22 capes are amazing and actually provide a pretty robust air-ground ability (with it improving every day)...not to mention its amazing air-air capes. The jet is already in production and the maintenance is getting better on it slowly but surely as the mechanics and the engineers are working the bugs out. Again, my main point is that it will give us the top notch warfighting ability against bad guys that are much more technology advanced than you give them credit for and will provide that ability for the LONG TERM.




The F-35...right now that might as well be in coloring books...it's not scheduled for production for another few years, and just like everything military as far as big contracts go - it will probably be pushed even further right as it starts being built with budget issues, flying problems, etc...



As far as the F-15...you can't even compare a F-22 vs. F-15 when the F-22 is on its A game. This is like apples and oranges...and I'm not crapping on the F-15 at all, I flew it and loved flying it. The F-15 IS NOT filling the role of the Raptor, their missions have very different mindsets between them. The Raptor certainly has a unique niche based on the stealth, supercruise, and of course it's air-ground capes that the F-15C has none of. Again, think outside the box at the very credible threats and our long term ability to fight them (still keeping it at the unclass level)...that's where the F-22 will make its money and the conventional legacy fighters can't go. I hope they increase the buy of the F-22 because it will give the US an advantage unparalleled by any other country out there for years to come.