BKL (ASEL) Departure 'O Death

[paulsalem]

Today I did what my student and I did the normal BKL 360 heading over Lake Eire.

We were IFR Got runway heading off of 24, initial alt of 2,000. CLE dept turned us to 350. Long story short every time I go there (and other CFIs) we end up well beyond power off gliding distance to land.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but: Since the airplane is being rented by the student, it is therefore for hire, and if it travels beyond power off gliding distance from shore, must care a raft.

Next time I am thinking of advising tower prior to departure I won't be able to accept a vector that takes me out over the lake.

Will it work?

Thanks!

 

[MauleSkinner]

You don't need a raft until you get more than 100 miles from shore...hope you're not doing that out of BKL

Don't know for sure how it falls under the "for hire" rule, but if it did, you'd need life vests and a flare gun, I think.

Fly safe!

David

 

[paulsalem]

91.205(b)(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, “shore” means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.

I think if the aircraft is being rented its considered "for hire"

 

[minitour]

ah...love the CLE approach controllers...good times.

I'd probably advise ground after your clearance and on the taxi out...that way they can call Approach on the ground and let them know ahead of time. You may get vectors to hell and back...but it's better than being over the lake at 2000'...especially this time of year.

-mini

 

[SDCFI]

Today I did what my student and I did the normal BKL 360 heading over Lake Eire.

We were IFR Got runway heading off of 24, initial alt of 2,000. CLE dept turned us to 350. Long story short every time I go there (and other CFIs) we end up well beyond power off gliding distance to land.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but: Since the airplane is being rented by the student, it is therefore for hire, and if it travels beyond power off gliding distance from shore, must care a raft.

Next time I am thinking of advising tower prior to departure I won't be able to accept a vector that takes me out over the lake.

Will it work?

Thanks!

It never hurts to ask CD when you call for your clearance. Let them know as soon as possible so they can coordinate with CLE dep's and arr's. As far as being for hire: if you are instructing in an airplane you provide (ie flight school employee) the flight is for hire hence the req for 100hr inspections. If the student owns the airplane and contracts with you independently he/she is providing the airplane and it is not therefore "for hire". Also, aircraft rental itself does not constitute for hire. If your student rents the aircraft for their own personal use on a non-lesson flight it is also not for hire. As far as life raft req's go I can't help you there. Although if you regularly end up over Lake Erie in the winter I would think carrying a raft would be a sound idea whether it's req'd or not. I'm sure that water is a bit nippy this time of year. Not somewhere I'd want to be with or without a raft!

 

[paulsalem]

.....

 

[nosehair]

"For Hire", means Carrying Pax for Hire, not Rent. You "Hire" a flight instructor, you "rent" the airplane. 91.409 confuses the issue by requiring a 100 hour on an airplane not owned by the student when receivinf flight instruction "for hire". But that is specific to flight instructing in a rented airplane.
The 91.205 requirement for flotation and pyrotechnic signaling device is when the aircraft is "for hire" as in air transportation of passengers, not students.

This is my take on it. I seem to remember an official reading to that effect, but I can't remember where.

But consider this. A flight instructor is being paid to instruct, not carry passengers. That is why he can teach with no medical, if the student can be PIC. Even when the instructor must be PIC, because the student can't, he only must have a 3rd class to only be a Part 91 PIC. He is not being paid, or "hired" as a pilot, but as an instructor. The airplane is the vehicle he uses to perform the instruction, which is the "hire" part.

The 100 ispection requirement is a recent (relatively) addition to flight instruction in rented airplanes. But that does not include all the other requirements for "commercial air transportation" flights.

Also, I am not indicating that you should put yourself over water without flotation devices. I am only speaking of the legal terms.

 

[paulsalem]

I didn't mean for this to be a debate about "for hire", just how do i keep from turning into a popsicle floating in lake Erie. I really don't have an option of putting a raft in our 172 anyway, outside of me going out and buying it myself.

 

[RipCurl]

What if he put something like "no over water" in the remarks section when he files?

 

[atldc9]

This topic was opined about in one of last year's Aviation News by the FAA. The link is

http://www.faa.gov/library/aviation_news/2005/media/JulyAugust2005Issue.pdf

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

They've been doing that for years! One possiblity is not to do approaches into BKL. The other is to only do so when the lake is frozen solid. I send my students out to the lake to practice touch-and-goes, since some of them couldn't hit pavement in a parking lot to save their lives! That gives them a good couple-hundred square miles of property to try to get the wheels on first.

I was joking about that last part. But when you're doing approaches, I'd rather get the right turn 360 than the left turn 180 off the runway with 300' ovc.

Shy

 

[LittleLearBoy]

I flew in and out of there for years hauling checks in a Lear. At 3AM they did the samething to me. The only different was I wanted to climb and they kept me low for a few miles for what reason I do not know.

Do they have the date posted yet for the Air Show??

LLB

 

[nosehair]

What if he put something like "no over water" in the remarks section when he files?

Remarks do not get forwarded to ATC. Tell them on the radio.
I am not familiar with BKL, but I know some busy places will give you a hard time over it, but some places will respect your request to not fly over open water. You just have to tell them.
...bottom line is, you are PIC and responsible.

 

[wmuflyguy]

What if he put something like "no over water" in the remarks section when he files?

That never seemed to work, I got sent across the lower part of lake michigan by Chicago approach, well beyond power off gliding distance with a student. I wasn't happy, but they kept giving me unable BS whenever i asked for southerly vector.

 

[nosehair]

I got sent across the lower part of lake michigan by Chicago approach, well beyond power off gliding distance with a student. I wasn't happy, but they kept giving me unable BS whenever i asked for southerly vector.

...(heavy sigh)...yeah, I know. It ain't easy buckin' traffic. Every body else does, why the heck can't you? I mean, that's what the controllers think...and re-act to...but, you have the right....and the responsibility, and the authority. It's up to you tp use it. I've done it. Be nice, give them a heads up, because, you know, they're not used to it, and maybe you'll have to write a report, but, you have the right and authority.
FAR 91.3(a)&(b) is your legal responsibilty & authority.
(a) holds you accountable, (b) gives you authority.
"In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."
FAR 91.123 also give authority. (b)"Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to ATC instructions..."
You should be prepared to have to comply with (d), submit a report, but, you have the right...and responsibility.

 

[Metro752]

When I was doing my primary training, my CFI told me he had this exact same thing happen to him out of BKL on a cold winter night, and he didn't have engine problems, but he was almost imagining hearing the engine run rough.

 

[machaf]

Remarks do not get forwarded to ATC. Tell them on the radio.

In my area they do. MSP center. We put what approaches we want to do in the remarks section. They clear us for that.

Also the local approach controllers want "single engine ILS" in remarks when we are doing SE Approaches so they have space properly.

Maybe its just a local thing here...

 

[aerobaticspilot]

Haha its becuase cle center and approach have no idea what they are doing... just say you cant go out over the water.... they should work with you and if they dont.... go vfr

 

[minitour]

Haha its becuase cle center and approach have no idea what they are doing... just say you cant go out over the water.... they should work with you and if they dont.... go vfr

VFR out of Lakefront is an even worse option. It's a tremendous headache.

If they're departing 24R/L out of BKL, you either bust the Bravo (cuz they won't clear you through/in it right away due to arrivals from the North turning Base just west of BKL) or they send you over the lake...it's not much, but it's beyond glide distance at that altitude (the shelf is decently low too...2000'? haven't seen a TAC/SAC in a while).

If they're departing 6R/L out of BKL, they want you at 2,000' and a heading that takes you right through CGF's Delta. Now, the catch is...you're not inside the Class B airspace (you're under it) and you can remain clear of the Class D airspace AND class B on a more direct easterly heading. Lots of people forget/don't realize you don't have to talk to the CLE controllers (and therefore listen to their "xyz heading" instruction) if you're not going in their airspace.

Personally...I prefer to go IFR and tell them I need higher and/or a turn towards shore. If I've GOT to go VFR (equipment "situations"), I'll prolly just talk to CGF and get to transition thier class D...but depending on what's going on there (Flight Options) it can be busy too.

Really...we need a VFR Corridor there. Just one leading from the west side of CGF/east side of BKL all the way south down to ACO (Akron VOR/DME). Would be much simpler.

IMHO

-mini