Biggest compaints from owners??

[smfav8r]

I was just curious what are the biggest complaints owners have about fractional ownership?

From owners and pilots I've talked too: scheduling seems to be a problem, not getting the same type of aircraft you purchased, lack of personal attention, different crews, etc.

Are there any other gripes from owners you hear on a regular basis?

The reason I ask is....I own a small 135 operation and I'm looking to add a couple of fractional ownership aircraft.

Any problems or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[leardawg]

When I flew for a Frac a common thread seemed to be a lack of truth telling and straightforwardness from owner services. Apparently, being BSed and outright lied to was a fairly common occurence.

One example: We had an early morning trip originally scheduled for another airplane. Because of duty/rest requirements, we would not be able to make the original pickup time. When we arrived, the owner casually asked "So you guys had some weather delays getting out of XYZ I hear?", when in fact the weather was fine. Owner Services made up a bogus story rather than just tell the guy the real situation. When they find out about things like that (which they often do, because by and large they aren't stupid), it leaves a very bad taste in their mouths.

 

[gunfyter]

Sell Offs

 

[notaNJApilot]

Sell Offs

x 10

the owner pays to fly on NetJets aircraft, not someone else's.

 

[gutshotdraw]

1) Sell-offs

2) Owner Services, er, "creative representations"

3) Scheduling

4) Catering

5) Ground Transportation

 

[Dep676]

At Options I would say that they are lied to by owner services on a constant basis. That really makes them happy then we get to hear about it.

 

[Dilligaff]

I agree with gunfyter and notaNJApilot. Chartering another type of plane is the most common complaint that I hear. I was in LAS and we had two customers there and one of them had a Citation chartered for them. They were trying to fight over who was going to take the chartered plane because they both wanted to fly on the plane that they bought a share of.

Others include:

Catering (wrong meals, no meals, no condiments or flatware)

Overzealous sales department ("this plane can outperform the space shuttle and carry twice as much!") Be realistic with the performace capabilities of the airplane when presenting it to your owners, i.e. payload vs. range.

Communication Don't BS these people. They didn't become millionaires because they're idiots! They can see through it.

They expect everything to be taken care of for them if they request it. (ground transportation - limo or rental cars, catering, hotels, etc) If they ask for it, give it to them. That's what they pay you for.

While I'm at it, here's some complaints from pilots:

Schedules, or lack thereof

Getting up to date charts

Scheduling hotels and ground transportation in a timely manner

Arranging customs and providing the proper customs documentation

Communication

Our company is doing a great job of listening to and addressing these problems brought up by the crews. They are your eyes and ears of what's going on out there.

Good luck to you. I hope it works out.

Dilligaff

 

[smfav8r]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Sounds like Owner Services are reading from the playbook from Customer Service at the airlines.

I'm thinking less owners per bird may help with some of the above problems.

Instead of 16 owners, maybe 10?

Does anyone know if most of the owners of a 1/16th share use there full 50 hours?

Most of my customers complain about the monthly charges at the Fractionals. They feel if they don't fly their airplane that month, they shouldn't be charge. They would rather buy block time, like the Marquis Card with NJ.

That being said, the ego driver still creates a need for ownership and not just plan charter.

I figure 10 owners with 75 hours per year may work out well, but I could be wrong...

Any thoughts?

 

[smfav8r]

Dilligaff,

Thanks for the response.

I agree with you 100% about listening to the crews.

Luckily for my crews, I still fly constently. And man do I get earfulls when something is completely FUBAR!

I try and fix any and all of the problems brought up by the crews. So far, so good.

I'm trying to get a jump on any associated problems with fractional ownership, trying to get it right out of the shoot so to speak.

I'm hoping to learn from any mistakes some of the bigger companies make.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[notaNJApilot]

16 owners per a/c? 10 owners per a/c? that's still too much. more owners means more possibility of someone else wanting your aircraft at the same time you do. so the fix is to have more aircraft available, but as a startup, you probably don't have that option.

when santulli started NetJets, he sold quarter shares...hence the QS tail.

things like the marquis jet card with 1/32 shares are another contributing factor to the lack of profit at netjets.

 

[notaNJApilot]

and like Dilligaf said, these people are millionaires. maybe it would be worthwhile to staff your owner services department with people capable of dealing with persons of prestige.

 

[flyboycpa]

Most of my customers complain about the monthly charges at the Fractionals. They feel if they don't fly their airplane that month, they shouldn't be charge.
?

That makes no sense at all. If you owned the entire thing, you'd be incurring fixed expenses for every month you owned the airplane (hangar, insurance, calendar-based maintenance, etc.). Same goes for your full-time pilot. You think he's gonna work for you as a "full-timer" and be ok with not getting paid for a month or two because you decide that you don't want to fly your plane? I think not! These customers aren't being charged direct operating expenses (fuel, oil, catering, etc.) if they aren't flying. Those are included in their share price allocation per hour of use.

Also, the quote by Dilligaf about these people not becoming millionairs by being idiots is true. Sometimes they are just born into it! Those are the worst kind! Normally the self-made millionair is far easier to deal with than the 15-50 year old that is riding daddy's coattail of success!

just my thoughts,
fb

 

[NJAowner]

Qs

when santulli started NetJets, he sold quarter shares...hence the QS tail.

From what I heard it was not even that exciting. When RTS started NetJets, an analysis was done as to what 2 letters had the most tail numbers available to register. It was QS. The rest is lore.

Fly safe.

 

[Sparse]

When I flew for a Frac a common thread seemed to be a lack of truth telling and straightforwardness from owner services. Apparently, being BSed and outright lied to was a fairly common occurence.

One example: We had an early morning trip originally scheduled for another airplane. Because of duty/rest requirements, we would not be able to make the original pickup time. When we arrived, the owner casually asked "So you guys had some weather delays getting out of XYZ I hear?", when in fact the weather was fine. Owner Services made up a bogus story rather than just tell the guy the real situation. When they find out about things like that (which they often do, because by and large they aren't stupid), it leaves a very bad taste in their mouths.

Amen brother. My biggest complaint with Owner services is not letting the crews in on the lie. If you are going to lie to the owners, at least let me know what the lie is.

 

[gunfyter]

How do you know OPS isn't lying to Owner Services?

Also what may have been true before ... can change as soon as a phone hangs up.

I have had at least 4 different releases for different trips ... and probably more line changes than that on occasion.

Now I have fueled for a 3 hr flight and they want me to fly 20 minutes. No can do we are too heavy ... gonna be way late.

Now OS has "lied" ... but its not their fault.

 

[Diesel]

I really don't give a crap who lies to whom. I tell the truth and only the truth to the owners.

They are smart people. They appreciate the truth.

 

[BSlapped]

Questions for smfav8r

So tell us smurfav8r,

How many planes do you have?

How many pilots do you have?

How many customers do you have?

I just learned the answers to those questions - zero, zero and zero, respectively! It's hard to have any planes, pilots and customers without an operating certificate! When will the BS end?



BSlapped!

 

[MorePilotPay]

How do you know OPS isn't lying to Owner Services?

Also what may have been true before ... can change as soon as a phone hangs up.

I have had at least 4 different releases for different trips ... and probably more line changes than that on occasion.

Now I have fueled for a 3 hr flight and they want me to fly 20 minutes. No can do we are too heavy ... gonna be way late.

Now OS has "lied" ... but its not their fault.

I agree.

Someone mentioned that one of the Owners complaints is "Scheduling". I'm sure the Owner's don't say they are unhappy with "Scheduling", they call us and book the trip for whatever time they want.

Now if we can't get it there for some operational reason it may not be "Scheduling's" fault. I think on-time performance might be a little more applicable here, what do you think?

 

[Publishers]

I recently met with a customer who was getting out of his fractional shares and wanted to buy his own aircraft.

His biggest complaint, he goes on multiple stop trips. He cannot leave his stuff in the aircraft, does not know what will be there when he comes back, does not know who the pilots are but knows they will not be the same that brought him, flight crews that run out of time and keep him standing there, the no personal attention and identification he seeks. and high fees for all the above.
Basically he wants his own aircraft and dedicated crew.

 

[Diesel]

Publishers does anyone actually believe the crap you print?

You just described the absolute anti fractional owner. Of course we should be used to your crap by now.

D

 

[Fozzy]

I recently met with a customer who was getting out of his fractional shares and wanted to buy his own aircraft.

His biggest complaint, he goes on multiple stop trips. He cannot leave his stuff in the aircraft, does not know what will be there when he comes back, does not know who the pilots are but knows they will not be the same that brought him, flight crews that run out of time and keep him standing there, the no personal attention and identification he seeks. and high fees for all the above.
Basically he wants his own aircraft and dedicated crew.

Well, there you go Ace. You should have asked for a job.

Problem for that owner is (just guessing) he can't afford his own jet. Pub, go away.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Publishers does anyone actually believe the crap you print?

You just described the absolute anti fractional owner. Of course we should be used to your crap by now.

D

I run into folks that have that same thought all the time (including my own boss who has been approached by several management companies and fractionals). There are plenty of folks that I have talked to are pilots for former fractional owners.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Foz,

You may not like to hear what Publishers has to say but there are more than a few owners who have come to the conclusion that Fractional is not for them.

Don't buy into the notion the Fractional is cheaper than whole ownership. It isn't. The advantages of Fractional are: Covenience, Flexibility, and Simplicity. Once again, any objective analysis of the 5 year total cost of Fractional versus whole ownership indicates that whole ownership is less expensive beyond 100 flight hours per year (depending on airframe) and that charter is less expensive below 100 flight hours per year.

Fractional has proven to be an easy way for newcomers to personal transportation to become familiar with the product and there will always be clients that choose fractional because of the advantages listed above and Corporations that need supplemental lift. Good thing, too, since my job and yours depend on it. But any penny pincher with a decent accountant who is interested ONLY in the bottom line will choose whole ownership or charter.

There is still a growing market for Fractionals and the concept is here to stay. Nevertheless, we all need to realize that many of our owners ARE price sensitive and hope that our employers react accordingly in order to retain as many owners as possible while attracting new clients as well.

 

[Just Peachy]

Cheaper

Dont buy it that fractionals are NOT cheaper....... Ive had at least a half dozen customers say to me that they owned airplanes in the past and now the fly fracs 'cuz its cheaper.....

With that being said, I think what they mean is its cheaper for the amount of flying they do, which was roughly less than a 100 hours a year. A couple of those past owners were marquise customers.........

 

[Publishers]

The individual I refer to was a fractional owner for quite a while and had shares in a Challenger with FO. These were the exact reasons that he wanted out. We have proposed a 601 for him that we will manage and charter.
Diesel, I don't care if you believe it or not but I thought this thread was about owner complaints. He had no real complaints on the transportation being achieved, it was the inability to control and know the aircraft was there for him with his stuff on board etc.

 

[Fozzy]

With that being said, I think what they mean is its cheaper for the amount of flying they do, which was roughly less than a 100 hours a year. A couple of those past owners were marquise customers.........

You are a smart man Sir. But please do not confuse us with facts.

 

[XShipRider]

#10 Last minute change of the tail number assigned

#9 Being told they can't leave due to weather as other aircraft of similar
type take-off

#8 Bad or wrong catering

#7 Owner services not keeping the owner updated on problems/changes

#6 Broken amenities

#5 Broken aircraft

#4 Wrong FBO

#3 Transportation not arranged and/or waiting upon arrival

#2 No slots available for a trip which was booked months in advance

#1 Assigning a wrong aircraft type or 'upgrading' to an unwanted aircraft
type (and not letting the new crew in on the little secret... which leaves
them to explain to the owner what happened)

Bottom line: Owner Services is key to averting many of the potential
problems which arise on any given day. Too often the crew was left
in the dark, unwittingly walking up to an irate owner thus left handling
a crisis of which they were unaware.

This not to say Owner Services is the cause of all the problems, they're
not. Others, as you all know, were weather delays, scheduling flights
too close together (turn times being shortened!!), owner not
communicating changes in a timely fashion, unrealistic maintenance
projections and forecasts, MEL lists being followed to the letter...
and on and on.

Dated information since I haven't worked at a frac' in a couple of years.

 

[Publishers]

It is an age old story,,,,,, pilots perspective,,,,the owners never show up on time and want all these last minute change,,,,,,owner perspective,,,, that is why I bought the plane- to go when I was ready and to change things on the run.

Alternative side-- I bought this 100,000 dollar card and I want everything that he guy who spent $45 million for his G5 gets.

 

[Diesel]

Publishers some of the stuff you say is correct about why people choose their own plane over charter but you are too quick to smash fractionals. Anyway you look at it the fractionals are here to stay. While there have been some owner complaints in the past look at the size of the organization. We realize that and work hard everyday to fix those complaints. Yet you're quick to smash us and say how you can offer them this and that.

What do you offer when your plane breaks and now the owners are stuck. Oh thats right if you had the time to actually sit in a jet cockpit you would be able to hold a discussion.

till then stay on the charter board.

 

[NJAowner]

What is best

"best" is what is appropriate for any individual and we are all different. For me, frax is cheaper than owning in $$ terms and much less headache. I use about 100-130 hours per year.

Yes, charter is cheaper. But if I was going in for brain surgery I would not choose my doc on the basis of price alone. The memories Payne Stewart and Teddy Ebersol remind me of that. I do not have the time to do due diligence on each charter operator, plance and crew.

I could write much more, but I am busy and have much to do tonight.


The fact is, I do trust the NJA pilots with my life and that of my family,employees and friends. And I take that very seriously. Thanks Grizz, Diesel, BartPearl, Gunfyter, NetJetWife'sHusband and many others who are too numerous to list.

Thanks.

Fly safe.