Big Iron Radar Technique

[LRvsH25B]

Greetings. Just curious how you guys flying the larger equipment use the radar or are taught about the radar. I've read all I can find on the net, but it seems I can't get a linear answer on how to use that thing. I am proficient, but some of the things the radar is able to do with a little bit of mental math and quick hands escapes me and I was hoping to get some pointers from the pros in hopes of bettering the ride for the folks in the back. Don't want the boss spilling his drink as I weave through to night sky. Thanks in advance my friends..........

 

[Huck]

In my humble O, if you want a smooth ride, you got to stay visual. If that means drastic deviations so be it. Lose sight, lose the fight.

Once you're IMC you can dodge the well defined stuff, but that doesn't give you a good picture of what is building under you. I busted out of an IMC layer right into a building thunderhead once. It had come in under my radar. The ceiling panels of the BE-200 fell down on the company owner, and the coffee pot dumped out on the floor. Eyeballs are your best friend.

(Of course, now I fly freight, and it's got to be contouring at least yellow before most guys will go around it....)

 

[radarlove]

Older radar takes technique, today's radar that is coupled with the IRS is pretty much, "stay out of the red", "try to stay out of the yellow" and "don't worry much about the green unless everyone is complaining".

Not a lot of operational theory, unlike the days where you pointed the ol' monochrome at the ground and did trig in your head.

 

[LRvsH25B]

(Of course, now I fly freight, and it's got to be contouring at least yellow before most guys will go around it....)

How do you set your radar up to get that Yellow you speak of?

Some put it at 100m and when they get ground Clutter at about 90m, then they use that picture and that seems to keep floks out of trouble, althought I don't use that technique personally. Here is what I like to do:

Since it's a rule of thumb that every 1degree of tilt is 1000 feet at that distance (70M=7000f for every degree of tilt), I'll put the radar beam on the ground then tilt up from there. Say I am FL410. I know I am 40,000f above the ground (40,000 AGL NOT MSL). I'll put the beam on the ground at 40M. Now, I raise the tilt up 10 degress from whatever the setting is with the beam on the ground at 40m (if it's at -6, I'll raise it to +4). That way I know the bottom of the beam is parallel to the earth at my altitude. Anything that shows up on the radar is at FL410 or higher. Mathmatically it makes sense and has worked well fo far, but maybe I am missing something.

Another factor to remember is that if you have a radar with Stabilization, with the feature on, the degree is relative to the horizon, NOT the aircraft. For something so simple, this thing is indepth.

Thanks for your response.

 

[FN FAL]

A good starting point would be Archie Trammel's video. If you can survive that, you can survive anything.

:beer:

 

[apdsm]

Greetings. Just curious how you guys flying the larger equipment use the radar or are taught about the radar. I've read all I can find on the net, but it seems I can't get a linear answer on how to use that thing. I am proficient, but some of the things the radar is able to do with a little bit of mental math and quick hands escapes me and I was hoping to get some pointers from the pros in hopes of bettering the ride for the folks in the back. Don't want the boss spilling his drink as I weave through to night sky. Thanks in advance my friends..........

Check Sporty's. Looks like they have several radar books/tapes. Archie Trammel is the expert. Very boring, dry video but tons of useful information.

 

[firstthird]

Some of the stuff we got in training talked about the 'energy' of the storm being between 15,000 and 25,000. So if you are below that, you tilt up; above, tilt down. The theory being that a thunderstorm is going to paint the best in that zone. So, having the bottom of your beam parallel with the earth will miss stuff that might only be a few thousand feet below you and building rapidly. Not to mention the good idea of staying a good distance above a thunderstorm (or upwind even better).

I've seen guys set some typical tilt (depending on the the range you are looking) and occasionally tilt it down or up to make sure you are getting the full picture. The limitation of a radar display is that it is showing you in 2D what is really a 3D problem. We tend to think in 2D but sometimes the tilting up and down helps to resolve what the real situation is out there.

The tilting up is a good idea too even if you are in the clear below the clouds, for instance on final approach. Nobody wants to be that guy who was in the clear below a big thunderstorm that is actually in the final stage of its life and collapes, creating the microburst of which we've all heard so much. The only way to really know when you are on approach is to have that tilt up towards 15k or 20k, not straight ahead showing you what you can see, no clouds in front of you at 2000 feet. It is the one just above that may decide to collapse that is the danger.

I'm no expert, just a synopsis of what I've read/seen done on the line. (oops, I don't really fly 'big iron' but I suspect that 737 radar technique is much like 747 or 757. Size of the radar dish probably isn't that different. Now, you start talking king airs and lear jets, probably different size dish, different resolution and techinques)

 

[vv100]

red=bad

hey it ain't brain surgery or nuthin'

 

[Thedude]

Man, i wished my radar had all them fancy colors

But seriously, each machine has its own unique way to operate the scope. I have primarly flown older aircraft that are all steam gauge and its a little more of an art, than a science learning how to operate and interpret the radar. The hardest part is trying to figure out where the real zero tilt is. The Trimble video is good for that but can be more of an excercise in futility.

But really, I will be glad when I get a color radar back.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Nobody mentions gain either, but if you're looking at a screen that is full of returns, backing off on the gain a little bit helps "fine-tune" the picture. Lets you see what is real bad, and what was just rain. I agree with the FedEx guy. Stay visual when able.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Best case, within reason, stay VMC. If not possible, set the tilt to paint ground clutter at the top third of the screen. Leave the gain in Auto. If you screw with the gain, keep your hand on it until it's back in Auto.
If a contour/red blob encroaches closer than the top third, watch it!
If it gets close, it's either WX or TERRAIN, simple as that. Avoid it. Your beam should pass above, (the target goes away) if you're going to fly above the "blob/contour".
My best advice: Play with it every chance you get. Day, VMC compare the returns with what you see out the window. Mess with the gain (keeping your hand on it, until back in auto). Use it in your home airport area to see what is ground clutter, what is WX.
Some guys think they are "saving" the unit by leaving it off. USE IT! It won't hurt the new units and if it is bad for the "old" units, so be it.
I use it whenever I can't see ahead. IMC or darkness.
Remember, the return bounces off moisture. Significant turbulence can extend ABOVE, Laterally, or in the total absence of moisture. Worst of all, hail doesn't give much return, unless it's wet and can extend FAR above and downwind of a cell.
I'm sure others on here can add more. Be CAREFUL!

 

[xjlifer]

Red=Bad .....unless your on final ...and everyone else is landing. Then you go right on thru it. Seriously I have seen guys deviate 100's of miles around yellow and red..then get on final and follow 30 planes right thru the red sh!t.

 

[AA717driver]

Red=Bad .....unless your on final ...and everyone else is landing. Then you go right on thru it. Seriously I have seen guys deviate 100's of miles around yellow and red..then get on final and follow 30 planes right thru the red sh!t.

Yep. Crazy.

Follow Huck's advice. If you can't do that, stay green.TC

 

[ReportCanoa]

Check Sporty's. Looks like they have several radar books/tapes. Archie Trammel is the expert. Very boring, dry video but tons of useful information.

I dare say that Archie's info is really only applicable to analouge radar and not digital. The newer radars are low power and high sensitivity. This takes a little different technique. Just my opinion...

 

[AC560]

What is this radar stuff, I just steer in the opposite direction that the ADF needle keeps jumping to!

 

[ptarmigan]

Avoid Archie Trammel. Go to Dave Gwinn. Gwinn actually knows what he's talking about, and has the credentials to prove it, not just a self appointed "expert" like Trammel.

http://www.davegwinn.com/

 

[Rook]

Red=Bad .....unless your on final ...and everyone else is landing. Then you go right on thru it. Seriously I have seen guys deviate 100's of miles around yellow and red..then get on final and follow 30 planes right thru the red sh!t.

:laugh:

So true...were you in MEM last week too?

 

[xjlifer]

He He Rook...nope I am getting a nice vacation due to the XJ Avro mem pull down

 

[apdsm]

Avoid Archie Trammel. Go to Dave Gwinn. Gwinn actually knows what he's talking about, and has the credentials to prove it, not just a self appointed "expert" like Trammel.


-Archie Trammell is recognized around the world as a leading expert in airborne radar systems. He has spent hundreds of hours in convective weather evaulating various weather detection devices. He has conducted over 600 radar seminars and developed many radar training programs for major airlines, government agencies and the military.


-Archie Trammell has trained pilots of every major airline, FAA, NASA and corporates on proper operation of weather radar.

-Over 35,000 professional pilots have been trained on these materials;
American, Alaska, Continental, Northwest, United, USAir, FAA, NASA, all military services and corporate flight departments.


Yea, this Trammell guy is some clown! He's fooled NASA, the military, and a majority of the major airlines!

 

[ptarmigan]

Thanks Archie for your self promotion. ;-)

Actually, for those of us who have ACTUALLY worked in this stuff, we know the truth, as does NTSB. Maybe you should ask the judge that booted Trammel from hearings.

Trammel is pretty good if you never plan to fly anything bigger than a Beech Baron, I guess.