Big Emirates question????????

[Gillegan]

If they are growing at the alarming rate that the claim it would seem that this is a move to keep the operation running. This is sort of like over here when they cancel vacations or offer buy backs.

It is partially a response to the staffing problem, but it is also a function of the jealousy factor. I'm sure that no one here is unfamiliar with the jealousy/envy that can sometimes color other airline employees attitudes towards flight crews. What may be a little different is the extent that Emirates enables that attitude. And just for your information, Emirates policy is that they WILL NOT buy back pilots vacation. Other employees? - that's okay.

Here's another question for you and all pilots in the UAE. Unions are illegal by name however I don't see how a group of pilots taking steps to stop some of the injustices that occur over there is. if say 250 to 300 stood up and said no to some of these things maybe you could effect change! I don't know as I am just throwing that out there. You always get more bees with honey than vinegar!!!

Don't underestimate the politics of power. A few years ago, the company changed a policy that basically left all the recruitment pilots working for free. When they all marched in and tendered their resignations, the company let it be known that they would be prosecuted for "illegal union activities". It was left to their supervisor to meter them out the door over a few months. Emirates is very aware of the value to them of the anti-labor laws and I have no illusion that they would be willing to shoulder some short term pain in order to maintain the current "power gradient".

 

[TSA145]

So basically if they "change" something that is in your employment contract (like say give you 30 days vacation instead of 42) then you can't complain or do anything about it? That's breaking a legal contract isn't it?

 

[johnsonrod]

So basically if they "change" something that is in your employment contract (like say give you 30 days vacation instead of 42) then you can't complain or do anything about it? That's breaking a legal contract isn't it?

So, who are you gonna sue? The government owns the airline. No unions. Plenty of willing applicants. Translation: you are on their turf and you play by their rules.

 

[fareview]

It is absolutely true. The company has now restricted the number of days off per month to 14 with no more than 6 in a row. Combined with the fact that according to the same chief pilot, 42 days of leave in our contract really means 30 days and that we can only take 21 days during a peak period, the chance to get home, particularly when you are from N. America or Australia has been greatly reduced. As far as commuting - the company has been very clear, they do not want people commuting. That has got to be one of the reasons for this latest initiative.

Regarding the "cry babies" on PPRUNE, I find it interesting that those who really have no idea what goes on here can chime in with such authority as to why some might not be so happy. Unfortunately, changes like those recently announced are all too common here.

As far as what this will do for recruiting, the majority of applications right now are coming from N. America. I would be interested in hearing how something like this sits with some of those considering coming here. One thing that you can be sure of, you won't be spending much time back home if you come to work for Emirates.

To clarify and in the interest of objectivity...are you saying that EK vacation has now been reduced to 30 days instead of 42..

fv

 

[Gillegan]

To clarify and in the interest of objectivity...are you saying that EK vacation has now been reduced to 30 days instead of 42..

fv

No. Your contract still says 42 days. The company will try to give you 42 days. What happened is that as the manning has gotten tighter and tighter, more and more pilots were not able to get their 42 days of leave. Some began to complain that contractually they were entitled to it. The response was that the company only had an obligation to give us 30 of the 42 days (as per Dubai labor law). If you do not get your 42 days, you will carry over the balance to the next year or you will be assigned leave but according to the company, 42 days per year (in your contract) really only means 30.

 

[fareview]

No. Your contract still says 42 days. The company will try to give you 42 days. What happened is that as the manning has gotten tighter and tighter, more and more pilots were not able to get their 42 days of leave. Some began to complain that contractually they were entitled to it. The response was that the company only had an obligation to give us 30 of the 42 days (as per Dubai labor law). If you do not get your 42 days, you will carry over the balance to the next year or you will be assigned leave but according to the company, 42 days per year (in your contract) really only means 30.

Thanks for clarifying..so in other words you will eventually get a pro-rated 42 day annual leave...only it will either be assigned or carried over.

fv

 

[Sioux115]

So, if you are only assigned 30 days this year the 12 days would be carried over to next year making it a total of 56 days of leave accrued? Probably too good to be true.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

It is partially a response to the staffing problem, but it is also a function of the jealousy factor. I'm sure that no one here is unfamiliar with the jealousy/envy that can sometimes color other airline employees attitudes towards flight crews. What may be a little different is the extent that Emirates enables that attitude. And just for your information, Emirates policy is that they WILL NOT buy back pilots vacation. Other employees? - that's okay.

Don't underestimate the politics of power. A few years ago, the company changed a policy that basically left all the recruitment pilots working for free. When they all marched in and tendered their resignations, the company let it be known that they would be prosecuted for "illegal union activities". It was left to their supervisor to meter them out the door over a few months. Emirates is very aware of the value to them of the anti-labor laws and I have no illusion that they would be willing to shoulder some short term pain in order to maintain the current "power gradient".

Your point is well taken and I thank you again for your willingness to speak openly about it. I would seem that with the law the way it is ie no unions then contracts would be eched in stone!!! I guess with the gov't owning the carrier it makes it it bit more interesting. I hear you also state that people lining up to join however it seems that many who come over decide not to take the job so it can be cost effective to keep training people only for them to leave or worse not take employment in the first place!!

WD

 

[Richard Gozinya]

.......people getting the positions but 3 out of 10 or 4 out of 10 that's a huge fail rate for interviews!......

this is key! I think that just because 3 or 4 of 10 get the job, doesn't necessarily mean that is all that were offered the job. In my interview class, we had 5 people. One that was just a complete joke, 2 that stated openly they probably wouldn't take the job if offered, and two that stated they would take it. That is 40%! Probably pretty close. This is the one thing that is not taken into consideration.

Dick

 

[Gillegan]

So basically if they "change" something that is in your employment contract (like say give you 30 days vacation instead of 42) then you can't complain or do anything about it? That's breaking a legal contract isn't it?

That's the whole point. Apparently they take a little different view here as to what constitutes breaking your contract. Probably more important is what is not written in your contract. The days of leave is in your contract (though I guess they consider it a "soft rule" - a term you will hear quite a bit). Technically, what they have just done with the scheduling rules is not contractual so it is fair game.

So, who are you gonna sue? The government owns the airline. No unions. Plenty of willing applicants. Translation: you are on their turf and you play by their rules.

You got it. I'm not sure everyone here understands this point. The rules most of us are used to don't apply.

I'm kind of surprised that the unions in the developed countries haven't taken notice yet of some of Emirates practices. Emirates is getting so big and has so few restrictions on operating practices that it has got to be a competitive issue. Their cost basis is much much lower than most other airlines (check out the PPRUNE thread on the 24 hour layover in IAH - AFTER A 17.5 HOUR FLIGHT!). As they grow, it will be harder and harder for other airlines to compete. Most regulators would not consider allowing some of the stuff that goes on here. The result - more and more downward pressure on wages and conditions. Even if you don't work here, what goes on is going to affect you.

 

[fareview]

So, if you are only assigned 30 days this year the 12 days would be carried over to next year making it a total of 56 days of leave accrued? Probably too good to be true.

Nope...true

fv

 

[Sioux115]

Nope...true

fv

Well that is some positive news. Has any here actually taken greater than 42 days of leave?

 

[fogrunner]

You can take to the bank what Typhoon and Gillegan have to say. They helped me immensely preparing for the interview. They will give you a fair and balanced assessment of life at EK.

I interviewed the end of May with 7 people as an FO candidate. 2 were asked to leave the first day because of the sim eval, leaving 5 of us. 3 were offered class dates. I was not one of them. I fly and instruct on the 11. The others flew the 727, A300, A320, 777, and 747.

Ek were extremely cordial and professional. I enjoyed my time in the desert.

PS. Typhoon. I enjoyed the lunch we shared the last time I came through Dubai. Your buddy Jack just observed me operating the SIM here in Miami (he is one of our APDs). Boeing closed the Alteon facility in LGB and moved the MD11 SIM and FTD to MIA.

 

[Gillegan]

Well that is some positive news. Has any here actually taken greater than 42 days of leave?

The amount of leave actually awarded has to do with:

1. Staffing levels
2. What you had last year (if you had a peak leave such as summer, you are not necessarily entitled to summer leave the following year)
3. Seniority

There are a lot of guys with a leave balance over 42 days. Some do get more than 42 days as it is in the company's interest to reduce the balance. The whole 30 days thing was the company's action to try to reduce leave balances - give the guys with smaller balances less leave so that they can reduce the balances of those with the most. The rub is that you may not have much choice on when you actually take leave and you are restricted to how much you can take at any one time.

You are also not credited for your leave. It is common for the company to assign 1 week of leave and to then fly you a full months work (70-80 hours)in the remaining 3 weeks. In that case, the balance is reduced and they still received full productivity - a freebee.

 

[Gottafly74]

Just some info I wanted to pass to all of you.
I interviewed with EK in Oct. 06 along with 4 other applicants. 1 SW f/o, 1 Air Hong Kong A300,1 BMI A330, 1 737 from S.America and me from CAL. 4 of us made it thru the sim which in my opinion wasnt all that bad. 4 of us were offered the job and 3 took it. My job offer was rescinded after I told them I could not make it to DXB in Jan. 07. They seem very strict on the application numbers as far as the time required to report to training. I put down as 8 weeks minimum, however during the panel interview the subject of starting in January 07 specifically came up and I replied that due to a new addition to the family,I would be unable to make it in Jan. We had a 5 day old baby when I went to DXB for the interview after receiving 7 day notice for the interview. I told them specifically that anytime between April or August would be OK.

I tried to reason with EK but was absolutely floored by their attitude with regards over exact start dates. It shocked me how inflexible they were and the last Email I received from them told me how I was never to be employed or reaaply with them.

My wife insisted that I go and she could manage the 3 kids. My thoughts were, if they do things like this about start dates, what will they do when they have total control over you once you actually are employed by them.

Point is I think EK is a great airline and I met a ton of great people from all over the world there. But the lack of a working together attitude with the employees may be to a detriment in the future.

Just be very careful on the application and do not assume what you divulge in the panel interview is what EK HR will hold you to. The paper application is their bible.