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Big Brother SSN

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SDF2BUF2MCO

Bird Nerd
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
7,673
Realize this is an aviation message board but wanted to see if anyone in the know had any insight.
My company just announced yesterday that beginning in 2003 all applicants have to provide their SSN just to fill out an application. Up until now, an applicant didn't have to provide until they signed a consent form and that was only after it looked like the applicant was being given serious consideration and/or an offer.
My company is claiming they're doing this to make it easier to track and document in the event any legal claims arise over alleged hiring inconsistencies. We also have to use the same testing forms, etc. (which makes sense). When I brought up the concern about privacy issues the HR person basically told me the applicant has to provide or else they can't apply:eek:!
This is getting to be prophetic....can't buy, sell, or even apply for a job not unless you give out that cursed number.
Does anyone know how to get around this (besides going to a third world country or disengaging from society!)? Thanks.
 
It is prophetic, indeed. The next step would be the same kind of embedded chip that is being tested for tracking pets and children. It could be conveniently placed in the forehead, or on the back of the right hand. Just a thought.

Several years ago, I was told that the SS act specified that the number shall not be used as a national identification number. In fact, that is exactly what has happened.
 
Timebuilder,

I've heard essentially the same thing as you have, although, I haven't read the text of the act myself. It has indeed become a national ID number, and I find that more than a little disturbing. In many cases (but not all) the federal government has to provide options to persons who do not wish to use the SSN, just as an example, you can use some other number for your pilot certificate. The thing is none of that applies to private companies. You want a loan? The bank demands your SSN, don't want to give it? the bank doesn't have to do business with you. Want a job? give us a SSN, don't want to disclose your ssn?, we don't want you working for us. In that manner it has become a national ID number, despite the intent of the law.

regards
 
Let's just do away with social security. I like my little bit of anonymity I have now, I would like to have more. I would also like to have control of my crapfest-gov-run-retirement fund (i.e. social security), I think I can use the money better than they can.
 
A few years ago, a person was not hired because he refused to give his SS number on an application.

This person sued the Corporation and settled out of court.

The Company was Taco Bell.

After the Lawsuit, the Taco Bell Corporation (PepsiCo) removed the SS number from all of its applications.

Check out Title 5, 552a and see what it says about the Social Security issue.

DesertFalcon
 
Desert Falcon,

Thanks for posting the link. Haven't had time to do more than scan it, but it appears to be applicable to government agencies. I don't see anything which might regulate a private company's actions. Maybe I'm missing something?

Do you happen to know what the specific cause of action was in the Taco Bell suit?

regards
 
SNN re-issue?

Maybe this is a stupid question; but can you get a new SS number? I foolishly used it as my CFI number and now it is on a couple thousand logbook entries of students. Any ideas?
 
it is a well settled principle of American Constitutional Law still preserved in the statutory language of all Federal laws (save occupations incurring Federal excise taxes), that every member of this national community has a right to enjoy a free labor market, to have a free flow of labor for the purpose of carrying on the business in which he has chosen to embark. This right is not merely an abstract one; it is one recognized as the basis of a cause of action where there is an unlawful interference therewith.

Specifically, laborers have a right to a free and open market in which to dispose of their labor, or a right to a free access to the labor market for the purpose of maintaining or increasing the incorporeal value of their capacity to labor, despite our customary, superstitious, and religious application of the Income tax to everyone in this country. A laborer has the same right to sell his labor as any other property owner.

Labor is deemed to be property, especially within the meaning of constitutional guaranties. Thus, the right to acquire property includes the right to acquire property by labor. Since the right to labor is protected by the Constitution and numerous guaranties of state constitutions, one cannot be deprived of such right by arbitrary mandate of the state legislatures and/or by the Federal government when so protected.

In Patton v. Bellingham, 179 Wash. 566, 38 P.2d 364 (1937), the Washington Supreme Court reaffirmed the principle of law that labor is a right of property by declaring:

"The right to labor or earn one's livelihood in any legitimate field of industry or business is a right of property, and any unlawful or unreasonable interference with or abridgment of such right is an invasion thereof, and a restriction of the liberty of the citizen as guaranteed by the Constitution."

Yee Gee v. City and County of San Francisco, 235 Fed. 757, 759.

Any national legislation establishing a Federal Work Permit or National Identify Card, utilizing a Social Security number as a condition for obtaining employment in the United States, seeks only to deprive Americans of a fundamental freedom-the right to earn a living. Since the right to labor, and its protection from unlawful interference, is a constitutional, as well as a common-law right, and is to this day still statutorily unmolested except our perception of the law and our actions in pursuance to instructions on government forms allegedly in agreement with and explaining the law, the U.S. Citizen still has a natural right to the fruits of his own industry regardless of governmental demands.
 
FAQ's about your SS Number

The Social Security Number
****************************************************************************************************
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Social Security Number

Illegitimi Non Carborundum
*****************************************************************************************************


Here is a link to answer many of the question you may have about defending your Social Security Number.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ssn.htm

Happy learning!

DesertFalcon
 
The Social Security Administration in their publication "SSA Publication No. 05-10064", July 1997, regarding business requests for social security numbers states:

"If a business or other enterprise asks for your Social Security number, you can refuse to give it to them. They may have another method of keeping their records. However, this may mean doing without the benefit or service for which your number was requested. Giving your Social Security number is voluntary, even when you are asked for the number directly.
"If requested, you should ask- "- why your Social Security number is needed; "- how your Social Security number is going to be used; "- what law requires you to give your Social Security number; and "- what are the consequences if you refuse to give your Social Security number. "Answers to these questions will help you decide whether you want to give your Social Security number to get the benefit or service. The decision is yours."

The Social Security Administration recognizes and acknowledges the fact that in some cases individuals may not be able to "buy or sell" if they refuse to give out their social security number. However, many businesses will agree to use a number other than a social security number if asked to do so.

If you decide to resist giving out your social security number to a private company but you would like to do business with them anyway, you need to determine why they want your number. The two most likely answers are: 1) They simply want a unique nine digit number to enter into a computer database so that they can identify and distinguish you from other customers within their record keeping system; or, 2) They want to obtain a "consumer credit report" for use in determining whether they want to extend you credit. In the latter case, the business may have a contract with a credit-reporting agency to "exchange" information about you and your account, typically using a SSN. Both of these "reasons" can be satisfied, upon agreement, without necessitating the use of a SSN. A credit report can be obtained without using a SSN.
Once it is determined exactly why the business wants to obtain a SSN, then determine whether an alternative arrangement can be worked out.

The "simple" answer to the question as to whether a person must give their social security number to engage in some business transaction is "NO". But the business may refuse to conduct business with the resistor. The options here are to either: 1) give out your social security number; 2) do without the goods, benefit, service, or access; 3) persuade the other party to amend or modify the contractual terms and conditions; or, 4) sue the other party in court - the grounds for such suit would have to be determined by tort merits of the complaint (perhaps discrimination).

2. Do I have to give my employer my SSN?

Answer: No. Employment is a form of contractual agreement. Generally, the same points made in the previous answer regarding contractual agreements also apply here.
If the terms of employment include a requirement that the employee must supply their social security number then there are basically four options available: 1) supply the requested SSN; 2) ask to work out another arrangement where the SSN isn't required; 3) don't work for that company; or, 4) sue the business in court.

An employee or job applicant may be able to receive protection from coerced submission of a SSN for employment purposes by relying on federal anti-discrimination laws. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 Section 703(a)(1), Title VII, 42 U.S.C. Section 2000e-2(a)(1) makes it unlawful to discriminate against any employee or perspective employee on the bases of his or her religion. (This is in addition to the basic Constitutional First Amendment protection of the free exercise of religion.)

In 1992 a complaint was filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity (EEOC) by a Mr. Hanson, wherein he claimed as a "Christian Fundamentalist" he could not obtain or use a SSN. The EEOC filed suit against the business that fired Mr. Hanson on his behalf. The suit claimed that firing Mr. Hanson due to his not having or getting a SSN constituted discrimination due to his religious belief. The business claimed that they were required to either force Mr. Hanson to get a SSN or fire him because they were required by certain IRS Code sections and regulations to report all employees' SSNs on certain IRS forms. The business also responded that it was required by federal law to report all employees' SSNs to the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS).

The EEOC countered that the only requirement imposed upon a businesses by the various tax laws was that employers must "request" an employee's or potential employee's taxpayer identification number, and that there was be no penalty for a business not succeeding in obtaining one. The EEOC, itself a federal government agency, stated in its "Plaintiff's Response to Defendant's Motion to Dismiss" that:

"the Internal Revenue Code and the regulations promulgated pursuant to the code do not contain an absolute requirement that an employer provide an employee social security number to the IRS."

The EEOC further argued that employers were permitted to use any one of several acceptable forms of identification and employment eligibility verification other than a SSN and still comply with the Immigration Reform Act requirements.
The Court denied the employer's motion to dismiss the complaint. A settlement was later reached in which Mr. Hanson was awarded back pay. The Court's final decree setting out the terms of the settlement stated that: "The [employer] shall be permanently enjoined from terminating an employee for failure to provide a social security number because of religious beliefs."

A sincerely held religious belief may serve as a valid basis for objecting to requirements for a social security number for employment purposes. A business could be found guilty of discrimination for taking adverse action against an employee or applicant due to their refusal to use or obtain a SSN.
 
From skytrucker:
"Maybe this is a stupid question; but can you get a new SS number? I foolishly used it as my CFI number and now it is on a couple thousand logbook entries of students. Any ideas?"

I looked this up and according to the SSA website a SSN can only be changed for the following (I'm paraphrasing):

-sequential SSN assigned to same family members
-certain scrambled earnings situations
-certrain wrong SSN cases
-religious or cultural objections to certain numbers or digits in your SSN
-misuse by a third party of your SSN and you have been disadvantaged by the particular misuse
-harassment, abuse, or life endangerment situations

Unless you can prove any of the above, sounds like you can't change. I wonder if credit card companies or government agencies providing your SSN and subsequent information to other companies constitutes being disadvantaged via all the pestering phone calls and junk mail :D ?
 
SkyTrucker:

I don't really have an answer for you, concerning obtaining a different SS number.

I do know that the Number is basically your Property Number for the Corporate United States. The Slave number is tracable to your 14th amendment, Federal citizenship.

Become a Sovereign Citizen and you'll regain your Constitutional power.

Not easy to do, but it can be done.

DesertFalcon

===========================================

SDF2BUF2MCO said:
From skytrucker:
"Maybe this is a stupid question; but can you get a new SS number? I foolishly used it as my CFI number and now it is on a couple thousand logbook entries of students. Any ideas?"

I looked this up and according to the SSA website a SSN can only be changed for the following (I'm paraphrasing):

-sequential SSN assigned to same family members
-certain scrambled earnings situations
-certrain wrong SSN cases
-religious or cultural objections to certain numbers or digits in your SSN
-misuse by a third party of your SSN and you have been disadvantaged by the particular misuse
-harassment, abuse, or life endangerment situations

Unless you can prove any of the above, sounds like you can't change. I wonder if credit card companies or government agencies providing your SSN and subsequent information to other companies constitutes being disadvantaged via all the pestering phone calls and junk mail :D ?
 

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