Best kept secret

[flexlrpilot357]

Griz: That was funny.

Chuck: That ol' "at will" argument. You must be REAL nervous about getting fired if you're willing to pay some sub-human thug protection money. Shame you can still be fired with just cause - or without. (like any other company)

Spend your money however you want. Hope it's truly worth it to you.

btw, "starting to??" What, you've never read me before?

 

[Live4flyng]

Have you told your Falcon 2000 customers that none of your pilots are qualified to fly the airplane?

Yeah, they are all well aware that there aren't any qualified pilots flying any of the airplanes at NetJets. They still prefer riding in the back of an American Made Air Carrier (NetJets) as opposed to the alternative; (READ: FlexLear357 at the controls). Have any more points to make or do you just like to gossip?

You must be REAL nervous about getting fired if you're willing to pay some sub-human thug protection money.

Maybe you should put your money where you mouth is and leave a forwarding address.

 

[Lear70]

Why have pilots been leaving FlexJet for NetJets.

Don't take this as a slam-I really want to know why.
Was it Management? Sched? 6/4-heard sometimes 6/2.
I know of at least three pilots that were at Flex between 2 - 3 years that quit and came to NetJets.

Fly Safe
Chuck

Back on a topic of use:

Flexjet pilots have left in droves before:

Back in '98 when Flexjet management made everyone move to Dallas. Most were told when they were hired they could live wherever, then a few months later they were told "Move to Dallas or be fired". Many were not willing to relocate their entire families and said "piss off".

Back in '99 when Flexjet management stopped using seniority to determine movement between fleets, stopped using seniority to determine schedules in the bid system, and took away most of the bennies that came with the job, a lot of people bailed, many to EJA, others to regionals, a few to majors that would have left anyway.

In the last two years, upgrades stopped, owners have been leaving the program at their earliest opportunity, the bennies haven't improved, and some were even furloughed. Not the most conducive to a happy working environment where employees wish to stay.

Like many places those of us have ended up at for one reason or another, it's a job in aviation when a lot of people don't have jobs right now, but when an opportunity to improve their situation came, those Flexjet pilots went then, and I guarantee you there are more who are there right now who have apps in at EJA who are just dying at the chance to go now. It may indeed be a "the grass is greener" situation, but having experienced one and having friends at both, I doubt it - the EJA guys just generally seem to be happier with their company.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Lear 70:
Back on a topic of use:

Flexjet pilots have left in droves before....
when Flexjet management made everyone move to Dallas.

Didn't happen.

Back in '99 when Flexjet management stopped using seniority to determine movement between fleets, stopped using seniority to determine schedules in the bid system, and took away most of the bennies that came with the job,

Didn't happen, didn't happen, and didn't happen.

Everything you posted is false, a partial truth, misleading, or just plain stupid. You're so full of fallacy you don't warrant a response.

Back to something more interesting:

So when are you Netjetters going to tell the story about the PayPal for OT scandal, and the Falcon 2000 pencil-whipped checkride scandal?

How about Netjets losing big money two years in a row? (Per Uncle Warren's annual letter) Don't worry, he's "backing you up". WB is notoriously loose with his purse strings, well known for corporate welfare, and he will surely pump enough millions of dollars into your corrupt organization to bankroll your 100% raises. Now that the $60K/yr OT "program" has been "cancelled", that should be enough to double the pay of a 5-year Captain, right?

 

[Lear70]

I was avoiding posting anything specifically against your diatribe, although it more than warranted the responses it has received, but when confronted my principles dictate a response:

In any sensible debate where a person is accused of falseties, the person making the accusal must submit proof of their allegations. Every single event I posted DID happen and I have the proof in writing, including:

My letter from the company requiring me as well as all other non-Dallas residents to move to Dallas in October of 1999 and my subsequent letters showing them how much money I saved the company by living in Nashville since 90% of my commutes were American Airlines Airpass to either JFK for TEB launches or to FLL or PBI and Nashville was, at the time, an American hub, as well as the company's letters back saying, "Too bad, it's the new policy". It would be nearly two years before outstation basing became a possibility again, and then only at specific "Gateways", which was well after I had moved on.

The FACT that when American Airlines sold their share of Flexjet (at the time BJS) back to Bombardier, we lost our ability to jumpseat on Southwest which was how I was going home on the off days, as well as losing our abilities to obtain discounts on hotels, rental cars, cruises, and other amenities that having an airline affiliation and I.D. provided, as well as the ability to use American Airlines facilities such as their Credit Union which had DRASTICALLY better interest rates than Community Credit Union. I call those benefits lost, wouldn't you?

My letter from the company disallowing the use of the American Airlines First Class lounges in uniform, even though many of us were American Airlines Advantage Gold or Platinum from our travels. A benefit I GREATLY enjoyed when having to wait at the airport for 3 or 4 hours after a rotation to go home. Benefit lost.

My letter from the company taking away my vacation twice for operational need before that ability was ever in any of the Company's Policies and Procedures Manual and later the FOM. Benefit lost.

The company's taking away the $1,000 a day pay for Captains to pick up trips on their days off in December of 1999 and January of 2000 and deciding to use chartered aircraft if they couldn't get enough Captains to pick up trips, even though it cost them more money to do so, because "They didn't want to set a precedent for that kind of pilot pay". Benefit lost. By the way, I have copies of my pay stubs that reflect those pay periods to post as well.

The proven FACT that during my tenure with the company, movement between fleets, in my case, a change from the 31 fleet to the 60 fleet I had requested, was always whomever the fleet managers happened to like, not on seniority.

The copies of my bid sheets and the results of the bid awards for monthly schedules between January and March of 2000 when the bid system first came to fruition by the hard work of two line pilots. Ask Rick Handschuch if he remembers the incident in March of 2000 where I was awarded one line then after making arrangements for my 10 year high school reunion (including non-refundable full-fare airline tickets and hotel accomodations) that line was taken away from me and given to a more junior pilot. He refused to have it changed back and told me, "If you don't like it, find somewhere else to work". I did so the next month.

Many of the above policies may be different now, but were you even THERE in '99 and Y2K? I'll be happy to scan the documents I mentioned above and post them to my website. I came to Flexjet from a decent Part 135 Lear charter department when Flexjet was a fantastic place to be. After all of the above happened, it had become nearly identical to the Part 135 company I left, so I moved on to something better. If the company hadn't changed for the worse, I'd more than likely be happily working their still, as would many friends I made there who also left; Flexjet is still better than many of the not-so-friendly Part 135 jobs out there, but it pales in comparison to the Quality Of Life provided at EJA.

Now. Where is YOUR proof, sir, that the above statements are lies?

Incidentally, the mass exodus of Captains that came in the spring and summer of 2000 was so bad that Karen Parr started using "Exit Interviews" that had to be completed with her before receiving your last paycheck. They wanted to know WHY such a large number of Captains were making what appeared to be lateral moves out of the program. Call her up and ask if you either don't remember or weren't there during that period, she and I have spoken often, even since I left, and she knows me by name well.

Care to post your name and number for calling me a liar? Here's mine:

Richard Murphy - LR 31a (don't remember my employee number, should be easy enough to find).
Flexjet Date of Hire: July 11, 1999, hired by Jon Walegir
Flexjet Date of Upgrade: December 21, 1999
Flexjet Date of Resignation: July 4, 2000
Current phone number: 615-210-5046

Your turn to reveal your identity... or will you be too much of a coward? Slinging mud and stirring the pot from behind the veil of anonymity is easy...

p.s. I love a spirited debate as well, but calling someone a liar goes beyond the debate niceties of good taste, especially when you don't know who they are or their situation enough to make such an accusation. Other than that, let the debate roll!

 

[Pilot's Wife]

flexlrpilot357,

I assume you are trying to be funny with several of your comments on this thread. Since I am on your side of some of these issues, I can see this. However, you are only funny if other people are laughing, and I'm not seeing many people laughing. You have proven yourself to have valuable insight into Netjets vs. Flexjet, but your delivery needs work.

Yes it is true that some Flex pilots have left to go to Netjets. Especially those FO's that are into year 4 of FO pay. Netjets gave them what they needed, better pay and CA time. There have been benefits taken away at Flex over the last 4 years, but they have been done in a fiscally responsible way. Taking away Hilton hotels is worth it in our eyes if it means our company doesn't operate in the red. We did have layoffs and pay freezes after 9/11 here, but I am happy to report that we are looking forward to our bonus check next month, the first one in a few years. A few extra thousand dollars we can use. My husband had the opportunity to go to Netjets after he started at Flex and chose not to because Flex fit him better (he has always maintained he'd rather have a somewhat smaller paycheck and fly a lear than more money and fly a citation Not my words - his. But he got better pay and the lear at Flexjet.

We personally are friends with owners in Netjets and Flexjet. My husband personally got them to buy into both companies. They're experience has been better with Flexjet and when it's renewal time they are leaning toward dropping Netjets and getting a bigger share in Flex. That is they're experience. Not everyone's experience is the same. All the Flex pilots we know are very considerate, gracious people. I think flexlrpilot357 likes to get at you guys, but he is likely very professional in the job.

We don't always have to debate whose company is better (or whose is bigger - if you know what I mean). They are different, and that is why they work well.

 

[cgmason1]

p.s. I love a spirited debate as well, but calling someone a liar goes beyond the debate niceties of good taste, especially when you don't know who they are or their situation enough to make such an accusation. Other than that, let the debate roll!

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** flexlrpilot357 that was quite a spanking you just received.
let me guess-you want to know about the Falcon Checkrides Blah Blah Blah.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Rich,

So you weren't grandfathered into the old policy of "live where you want". That's a real shame, but I call that a legitimate business decision.

You weren't allowed to use AMR facilities after the buyout and the subsequent severance of ties with AMR, and you percieve that as an intentional deprivation of your god-given rights. How incredibly unrealistic of you. Do you think Flexjet even had a choice in that matter? Why would AMR allow non-employees to use their credit union. I'd say that would be an affront to the good employees of AMR.

The rest of your complaints ring hollow, are ancient history, or I simply have no interest in.

Saaaay, aren't you the guy who had his dad call the company to defend him?

Pilot's Wife: I'm sorry if this isn't funny to you. Truthfully, I'm kinda losing interest in this thread too. Kudos to you, you're right re: both companies being good places to work and all, and big Kudos to your husband for preferring to fly Learjets. I'm certain he is a gentleman and a scholar, and a man of highly refined taste.

And you're right, I just like getting at these guys and watching them squirm. Fact is, I have some close friends at Netjets, and when I'm with them, we talk about all of the goofy things at both organizations. So really, all of this is for the benefit of the few people whose goats I can get.

 

[Lear70]

I noticed you didn't post your real name or contact number, exactly as I thought you wouldn't. Anonymity feels comfy, doesn't it?

Thank you for backing down from your "liar" accusal. I have to say, you're absolutely correct, most of those benefit issues were the result of the company doing business and I never said that they had any responsibility to keep those benefits intact; however it is why many of us chose to leave which was my point. Whether you agree with that choice was not the issue at hand.

Originally posted by flexlrpilot357 The rest of your complaints ring hollow, are ancient history, or I simply have no interest in.

How convenient for you. However, they are the basis for which many people chose to leave, which, again, was the original point I was trying to answer cgmason1 about 15 posts back... Additionally, history has a way of repeating itself, especially when management practices don't change. I said it when I was there and I'll say it again: Flexjet is a pretty cool place if you realize going in that it's just like any other charter operator but with a schedule and you don't let the constant policy changes bug you.

Saaaay, aren't you the guy who had his dad call the company to defend him?

*chuckle* Nope... not I, although I know who you're talking about. That particular pilot was fired. I resigned without duress; found a better opportunity and ran with it as my pilot record (which is obtainable under the PRIA) will show.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Rich:

My letter from the company disallowing the use of the American Airlines First Class lounges in uniform, even though many of us were American Airlines Advantage Gold or Platinum from our travels.

That complaint needs to be brought up with AMR. That was their policy, not Flex's. If you wanted to leave Flex on that complaint, good for you.

...taking away the $1,000 a day pay for Captains to pick up trips on their days off in December of 1999 and January of 2000

That happened because they needed people to work overtime, it was hard to find people to work it, and the old "supply and demand" rule kicked in. Eventually, mgmt. decided it made better sense to set one overtime rate and stick to it. Overtime is voluntary, you don't have to take it. So what is that taking away? Sounds like you're confusing a reasonable business decision with some sort of draconian oppression. Though I'm sorry I never worked one of those $1000 days.

I don't know the details of the other "FACTS" you posted, but based on your record, and of what I know of Flexjet, I'm sure you're not posting the entire story. Of course you're not going to tell us about the side of the story that casts you in a negative light. And of course, no pilots at Flexjet have ever done anything wrong, certainly not you.

In the off chance that you were truly wronged, well sorry to hear it. Really, I am. I have nothing to gain by your misfortune or suffering.

As far as not posting my phone number on this bulletin board, my mommy won't let me. Besides, this isn't a personal issue for me, I'm not making it a personal issue, and it certainly isn't important enough for me to post my contact info. Your display of "bravado" is noted though. How impressive.

p.s. I am pretty sure I remember hearing about your dad in the office though.