Being a CFI again at the Regionals.

[av8er2]

How many Captains at the regionals feel like they are flight instructors again?

Nothing against the FOs, but most new hires are missing out on a lot at these fast tracks.

Getting a bunch of time in a sim at at a fast-track buy a job school doesn't give these pilots what they really need. I see these guys with less than 1,000 hours who can't even do a crosswind landing right. This is after having a few hundred hours in the CRJ.

I know not all fit this profile but I am finding the lower the TT gets the more I have to work.

 

[cybourg10]

This is a perfect example of why you should get your CFI and instruct before you go to the regionals. None of this "I cant instruct sh*t."

 

[Rogue5]

Many FSDOs will renew your CFI if you are currently employed as a 121 PIC.

Rationale for it told to me by a Fed doing my initial type ride:

"If you're not giving dual every day you act as Pilot in Command, you're not doing your job."

 

[Crash Pad]

Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard

 

[skengdon]

Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard

LOL!!

 

[jimcav]

What do you expect out of a copilot with no experience? Back in the old days guys got 135 jobs at 1200-3000 hrs. Now we have KIDS with 300 hrs in the right seat of an rj.I give you rj capts a lot of credit for being essentially single pilot.

 

[Whydoitry]

Hmm. Well at my company one of the responsibilities of being a captain is training f/o's, it's part of our FOM, and it's probably part of yours as well. Give the guys a break. Try to think back to how you felt when you first were hired at your airline. Besides it's no different if you go to a legacy major,just ask a CAL captain flying with one of their brilliant new no experience f/o's.

 

[Alchemy]

Yeah, no kidding, some of the things I see riding up front on a "major" are just as bad.

280 knots at 7000 ft?

Captain saying "we're at the marker, would you like any gear or flaps?"

Overshooting altitude 200 ft while hand flying a leveloff in VMC.

And all that was just on one flight. I'm no chuck yeager, and I make plenty of mistakes myself, but unfortunately these are common problems for anyone new to a specific kind of aircraft. Things get better with time.

 

[IslandDriver]

To be honest on the line I see the FO's can handle the A/C in IMC doing approaches. The company does a good job in the Sim getting them ready for that.

Where I see the difficulty is general IFR procedures, radio calls, multi tasking, paperwork, and doing visual approaches. And thinking about the comfort and considerations of the passengers.

The 20 hours of IOE helps...if the IOE Captian cares....and then about 200 hours in the aircraft.

It is like instructing...but it gets difficult if the FO has an attitude!

 

[bmpilot2003]

This is a perfect example of why you should get your CFI and instruct before you go to the regionals. None of this "I cant instruct sh*t."

Where did you get that avatar at?

 

[SkywayFO]

As an FO somedays I feel like a CFI to my Captains. Some are weak, and sometime a guy is just having bad day. It happens. That why they have to knuckle heads at the pointy end of these things. I very wise man once told me, " The minute you think you know everything in an airplane. I the second before the airplane kills you." I learn somthing new every time I stap one on.

 

[Trogdor]

I definately agree with the passenger comfort comment. Some of these guys just yank and bank without even thinking.

I know alot of it has to do with just getting some time in the aircraft, that is understandable. The problem is the guys who don't even have the basics down, crosswind landings for example.

I've flown with 400 hour guys that were better than guys with 1200 hours, so you never know what you are going to get. I always take the first leg, then judging by how they handle themselves as the PNF can give some insight on how good they will be with the controls.

 

[aussiefly]

The point though is......... the problem with the FO or is it really with the training and hiring practices of the regional airlines.

If you could have picked up a right seat RJ job at 800hrs probably alot of you would have taken them15 years ago. Now I agree there probably is some issues with low time guys in pax jets but really guys show a bit of understanding.

The problem obviously lays with the recruitment protocols of the actual arilines not the pilots. Would you expect ALL the young guys to just say no i'm not going to take any jobs until i'm at 2000hrs like in the old days. I don't think thats realistic to expect people to turn jobs down.

Really, if you have a problem with the FO's its the comapnies responsibility for hiring them with their current mins. So take your rant out on teh comapny and int he mean time help those guys to learn as much as possible.

I see alot of lowtime FO bashing ehre and I think alot of it is really from mildly ticked off people that are annoyed that some of these young guys got opportunities that they never did (rightly ticked off that is). But seriously go get pissed at the company that hired them not the indivudal pilot.

Now flame away.

 

[climbhappy]

I can remember a Pip Turbo Arrow being a handful at 500 hours. can't imagine myself coming into Newark in weather at night with that kind of time

 

[paulsalem]

Many FSDOs will renew your CFI if you are currently employed as a 121 PIC.

I love how the each FSDO makes up their own rules. No where in 61.197 does it allow for this.

 

[paulsalem]

This is a perfect example of why you should get your CFI and instruct before you go to the regionals. None of this "I cant instruct sh*t."

I have about 800 hours of dual given now. (Not a lot compared to most, but still enough to understand a few things).

I think I would be a better pilot if I would have spent that time flying aerial photography, or right seat for someone like Air Cargo Carriers, or flying VFR 135.

Yes, I have learned a lot teaching for the past 800 hours. But I feel I would have been better off if I would have actually been flying for those hours, rather than sitting in the right seat watching.

Comments?

 

[JohnnyP]

....

Many FSDOs will renew your CFI if you are currently employed as a 121 PIC."

Ive had it done as a copilot from a FSDO, no questions asked.

 

[paulsalem]

Ive had it done as a copilot from a FSDO, no questions asked.

I wish they would all follow the same rules.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I wish they would all follow the same rules.

Shhhhh! You will be in line at the FSDO like everyone else when you get the chance.

 

[JohnnyP]

....

I have paid the lifetime fee through american flyers, but frankly this was much more painless, just a phone call and bam, done.

 

[paulsalem]

Shhhhh! You will be in line at the FSDO like everyone else when you get the chance.

You are right there.

 

[Rogue5]

I love how the each FSDO makes up their own rules. No where in 61.197 does it allow for this.

The guy I spoke with stated it was authorized under 61.197 in that being a Captain constituted being "in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots" and if one brought in copies of our probationary pilot evaluations (each newhire FO is required to have 12 filled out in their first year at my company) and a current 8710, we'd get our CFIs renewed no questions asked. I have heard of this from more than one Fed.

Section 61.197: Renewal of flight instructor certificates.
(a) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate that has not expired may renew that certificate by—
(1) Passing a practical test for—
(i) One of the ratings listed on the current flight instructor certificate; or
(ii) An additional flight instructor rating; or
(2) Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector—
(i) A record of training students showing that, during the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has endorsed at least five students for a practical test for a certificate or rating and at least 80 percent of those students passed that test on the first attempt;
(ii) A record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots; or
(iii) A graduation certificate showing that, within the preceding 3 calendar months, the person has successfully completed an approved flight instructor refresher course consisting of ground training or flight training, or a combination of both.
(b) The expiration month of a renewed flight instructor certificate shall be 24 calendar months from—
(1) The month the renewal requirements of paragraph (a) of this section are accomplished; or
(2) The month of expiration of the current flight instructor certificate provided—
(i) The renewal requirements of paragraph (a) of this section are accomplished within the 3 calendar months preceding the expiration month of the current flight instructor certificate, and
(ii) If the renewal is accomplished under paragraph (a)(2)(iii) of this section, the approved flight instructor refresher course must be completed within the 3 calendar months preceding the expiration month of the current flight instructor certificate.
(c) The practical test required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device if the test is accomplished pursuant to an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
[Doc. No. 25910, 63 FR 20289, Apr. 23, 1998]

 

[PCL_128]

I love how the each FSDO makes up their own rules. No where in 61.197 does it allow for this.

From 61.197:

(ii) A record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots; or

That's where they come up with it. It can be said that Captains are always in the position of evaluating the new FOs they fly with. Some companies even have formal procedures for it. Pinnacle requires Captains to fill out probationary evaluation forms on the probies we fly with.

 

[paulsalem]

OK that makes sense. If they require you to prove it.

Here is what really makes me mad. Our local FSDO will not renew CFIs based on pass rate twice in a row, they make you renew it by flight the second time around. Now according to the FARs there is no limit to this. So why do they get to make up their own rules and we dont?

(i) A record of training students showing that, during the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has endorsed at least five students for a practical test for a certificate or rating and at least 80 percent of those students passed that test on the first attempt;

 

[G2T]

Back in the old days guys got 135 jobs at 1200-3000 hrs. Now we have KIDS with 300 hrs in the right seat of an rj.I give you rj capts a lot of credit for being essentially single pilot.

You didn't happen to have to walk to school going uphill both ways with worn-out shoes and snow up to your waist, did you? Just curious. As one of my old friends once said, "The times, they are a-changin'". This issue has been hammered on here time after time. Planes are not falling out of the sky, so lets move on. On another issue, it seems that the captains that feel they are flying single pilot and the F.O. is just there because the feds say he has to be, well those are the captains that need to be watched the closest and given the most help (as a general rule).

 

[No Delay]

Why is it that when a person moves over one seat...he is suddenly the best damn pilot and everyone else needs his instruction????


Who out here has never blown thru 10000' at 300kts????????
Who has never been doing 250kts to the marker???????
Who has never bounced a jet on landing?????


I definately have days when I need all the help I can get. I have flown with some captains who have done some things that make you think "WTF?"

News Flash: You are not as good of a pilot as you think you are!

 

[JohnnyP]

......

What do you expect out of a copilot with no experience? Back in the old days guys got 135 jobs at 1200-3000 hrs. Now we have KIDS with 300 hrs in the right seat of an rj.I give you rj capts a lot of credit for being essentially single pilot.

Show me an incident/accident that was caused by the captain having so much on his plate to handle by himself, and the FO was low time, and could have helped to save the day if he was higher time (and dont use that pinnacle crash, that was a combined effort).

Like everyone has been saying, they have been doing this for years and years. Of course there is a line to be drawn somewhere. I would imagine someone with 300'ish hours would have a heck of a time keeping up with the pace of a turbojet aircraft, but whats the problem with sticking a 700 hour guy in the right seat of a turboprop? You guys dont want those jobs anyway.

I brought my neighbor up on this same subject a while back, ill use him again. He started flying DC-6s with 300 hrs, was in the right seat of a DC-9 at 1000hrs, it can be done. He was just a "punk kid" to some of you all, now he's retired. Im pretty sure you'd trust him, even though he never instructed or flew single pilot (with no boots, no radar, only one wing, yada yada) a day in his life.

You captains that really hate lower time FO's, didnt you know what you were getting into, having to eventually run the show and help out the FO's from time to time when you upgraded? Thats your job. Thats what you, the 'El Capita'in, are there for, remember? I guarantee, someone helped you out along the lines, time to help out a little yourself.

 

[buscap]

Said it before....I'll say it again...

When I was in the right seat, all the guys in the left seat were buttholes.

Funny how, now all the guys in the right seat are buttholes.

 

[172driver]

Yes, I have learned a lot teaching for the past 800 hours. But I feel I would have been better off if I would have actually been flying for those hours, rather than sitting in the right seat watching.

Maybe you're right but an argument can be made for either side. If you had been flying the last 800 hrs, you probably would be a slightly better control manipulator but a better pilot, maybe not. Especially if you were flying day VFR all the time.

Anyone with 1000 hrs in an airplane probably knows how to manipulate the controls properly, use the radios, get around the traffic pattern, and operate proficiently in the IFR environment. By instructing, you gain all the intangibles that come from experience without being saturated by flying the airplane. As the flying pilot, your perspective and situational awareness become much more narrow than as the CFI/NFP, thus you learn less. This is true no matter your experience level.

Also, you are forced to learn how to get along with different personalities, to communicate, and to teach. You can't teach something repeatedly without learning quite well how to do it yourself. I will say that I was lucky enough to have a lot of instrument and CFI-I students, so maybe my perspective is a little different than someone who has mostly private students.

I will also say, pertaining to this thread, that there are more than a few captains out there that I have been forced to give instruction to on a regular basis. It's not always about what seat you're in or your experience level.

 

[FreightNazi]

That's why it's best to fly single pilot night freigtht! No 500hr wonder to worry about!