BE60 Duke Question

[CarjCapt]

Lead Sled Correct

You are so right about the 56TC.

I always thought the 56TC and the Duke are sexy looking and were built because of ego rather than performance.

I flew the Duke briefly (in the mountains) and found it a ground loving, hope the any engine doesn't quit, small cabin aircraft.

With the Royal Turbine the ego continues now costing about a million to join the club. If I had to have a Duke (and I had a million to spend on aircraft) I'd buy it and keep replacing the engines put fuel in it and still retire with money left over.

But thank goodness we have choices...Cessna 414 would be my aircraft of choice.

 

[av8tortype]

Anyone have any experience maintaining a Duke? Looking at 1979 that looks like a good a/c for the money. What are the weak points and is the bad reputation deserved? Thanks

I own and fly a 1974 B60 so I have a few anecdotes I can share. Overall, it's built better than any Cessna or Piper product in its class but with less than 600 produced can be tough on the pocket book if you buy one that's had skimpy maintenance.

 

[Blackjet]

Oh buddy, it's a MX hog. It was advanced for its time; You see, the Engineers designed with the nose close to the ground. The reason for this is so that it can automatically sniff out a mechanic. Innovative.

Seriously, think about what you are buying; a PISTON powered, turbo charged aircraft and the engines are also used to pressurize the aircraft and probably to deice the aircraft as well. That's a lot of work for a piston engine. Any piston engine is already trying to tear itself apart, then add all of those factors, and you have got a lot of stress. Those engines are putting out a lot of heat and we all know what heat does to engines. They are going to be expensive to maintain with what is available today.

If you do get one, try finding a full synthetic to run in the engines. People will tell you differently, but look, science it science, and a full synthetic will pull heat away from the engine and turbo as well as suspend the dirt/sludge in the engine. It'll clean the H#ll out of that engine. Years ago, Mobil put out a synthetic aircraft oil and they all leaked oil and people blamed the synthetic for that. In a sense, that was true, but the problem was the age of the engine, not the oil.

With any engine, aircraft or car, you can't just go putting synthetic oil in it. If the engine has some wear, and the seals have started to harden/crack, putting synthetic in there will do nothing but identify the leaks; ALL OF THEM. Synthetic is some slick stuff. That was the problem with the mobil oil. All these aircraft owners were putting it in engines that had hardened seals and it leaked everywhere. That was the problem. Get a Duke with fresh engines, and slap some full synthetic in there.

Along with the Oil:
1) Let the engine warm up totally at idle before you take off/apply take off power. That is a must. Pilots not letting that happen causes more damage to these Duke engines than anything else. The oil is not getting to every part of the engine (it's too thick because it is not heated to operating temperature)
2)DO NOT exercise the props during the run-up. That puts a great deal of stress on the engine and specifically the pistons. It bows them and it is unnecessary. When you apply Take off power, you'll know right away if there is a problem with the Prop governor.
3) At least 3 minutes at idle (or a little above. Just make sure the engine is not producing enough exhaust to power the turbo) before you shut it down. What this does is let the actual turbine wheel of the Turbo charger spool down while being lubricated with oil. that turbine spins at several thousand RMPs, and if you do not let it spool down with lubrication, the bearings coak, and it destroys the turbo. The lack of lubrication aggravates the heat build-up and there is nothing to take the heat away from the turbo.
4) Get a Pre-Oiler. Run it until oil pressure is at it's stabilized operating range and once that happens, start the clock and let it run for 30 seconds after the pressure is stabilized.
5) Plan your decents properly. People think shock cooling kills these engines and that is not the case. It certainly does not do them any favors, but it is not the end all. just don't be foolish about it. These engines have a lot of heat to go around. Think about it; trainers make it to over haul frequently, and they are shock cooled everytime they fly.
Those things alone with get you to OverHaul if you are religous about it. Good Luck.

 

[av8tortype]

.... snipped .... Good Luck.[/quote]

That's probably the only thing about what Blackjet said that I find specific to the Duke ... luck! Some have had camshaft issues, even from the factory, and some have gone well past TBO. Everything else is standard to any other pressurized twin. Built like a King Air, handles like a Bonanza, priced like a Baron and a good family hauler (wife, 4 kids, 2 dogs and nose full of luggage).

Blackjet .. the vacuum pumps run the wing de-ice, the turbos pressurize the cabin and the engines turn the props. That's how it is in the piston world.

 

[Blackjet]

Some have had camshaft issues, even from the factory

Are you suggesting the engine manufactures are producing engines that cannot be properly lubricated when operate per their own reccomendations? I sure hope not.

Those camshaft issues are from lack of lubrication, as I spoke of earlier. The Camshaft is the biggest common problem with the duke engine. Once again, oil is not at operating temperature when takeoff power is applied, so the camshaft is subject to lots of heat from the metal on metal contact, because the cam shaft (lobes) are actuating the lifters/rocker arms with less than the required amount of protection/lubrication.

Blackjet .. the vacuum pumps run the wing de-ice, the turbos pressurize the cabin and the engines turn the props. That's how it is in the piston world.

Genius, 'in the piston world", where does that vacuum pump and turbo get its power from?

Do you not know how those systems work? Just in case, let me explain:

Those items you spoke of are not self sustaining. That means the engine produces the power to run the items/systems you spoke of. If the engine is not working, neither are those items. That means, the engine essentially pressurizes the cabin, turns the props, runs the de-ice, etc. Furthermore, the exhaust being slowed by the turbo causes a pressure buildup in the engine that greater increses stress on the engine. There a a lot of factors and things to consider when a piston engine is used to power so many systems. You should know this if you are attempting to dispute what I have said. It seems that you need to go back and educate yourself on exactly how a piston engine works, with focus on their setups in aviation applications. It's not the same as a car.

So, what eactly was your point?

 

[LJ45]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

 

[av8tortype]

So, what eactly was your point?

I think you've proved my point ...

 

[icefr8dawg]

dosn't the duke have a life limited airframe? something lilke 9000 hours?

 

[Golden Falcon]

A Duke is kinda like a Corvette..not really a very "useful" airplane in many ways, but spent a bit of time in the very pointy front end of one and enjoyed every minute of it...I wasn't paying the bills though..and I actually managed to get a noise-violation in it at KSMO this is in the early eighties.but inside it was reasonably quiet...in it's day it would pass everything but a fuel truck..including the smaller King Airs (I seem to recall high-speed cruise was around 240kts) the one I flew very carefully made TBO then some..with lots of tlc included..the small stubby props turned 2900rpm I seem to recall..the geared version installed on the P-Navajo fared much worse..there is a version of the Baron with these 380hp TIO-541's installed as well.. the Duke had a not large but very nicely apointed (Beech quality is surpassed by none) cabin,and ample nose-baggage storage area, and looks that would give any"vette" driver a good stiffy...if you are looking for useful...forget it...but then a Corvette isn't really useful either is it? want looks and fun..and dont mind shelling out for it..then go for it!!! Still think it's by far the sexiest piston twin out there, and a lot nicer to fly than the "tinny" C-340 and the other competitors..
add..Blackjet's post contains some very good advice especially the bit about cycling the props..when properly warmed up, the oil will have travelled throught the governing system..a Duke is an expensive but very fun airplane..best way to make a small fortune in GA is to start with a large one and buy a Duke..but it sure is fun while it lasts..enjoy!! I personally would buy a run-out one and factory new "firewall forward" the thing...

 

[727gm]

BE 60
UGLY airplane - One thinks of it as an airplane designed to appeal to the those types that would add a whale-tail spoiler and fender flares to a Vette, wears lots of gold rings and an loud, open shirt with gold chains.

It does have the advantage of saving on tie-down fees as it's always in MX.

The turbine conversion does improve its looks a little.

 

[f-5]

The only duke that could show apositive climb rate on one engine was the one they used for certification. With additional equipment, like radios and things that hang frome the plane to cause drag, the plane will do good to hold altitude. Also, its like a helicopter, fly it an hour, then work on it three hours if you are lucky.

 

[Lead Sled]

The only duke that could show apositive climb rate on one engine was the one they used for certification. With additional equipment, like radios and things that hang frome the plane to cause drag, the plane will do good to hold altitude. Also, its like a helicopter, fly it an hour, then work on it three hours if you are lucky.

Twenty five years ago, I had a buddy that flew one for a company. The maintenance costs were so high back then that they ended up selling it and buying a Lear 24. He told me that the operating costs were actually lower with the Lear. I don't think that thing have improved any during the previous 2 and a half decades.

 

[sky4]

I have personaly owned several Dukes, buying them when they were real cheap, cleaning them up got offers and sold them. I really enjoyed the Duke as a personal airplane and ran them very easily. I would fly it 4 or 5 times a month and never had many problems with it, as for a corporate aircraft flying several times a week you are really gonna need to baby it. I have overhauled several engines and it was always around 50k per engine no matter how you did it. If you try to go cheap it will bite you and cost you. It was the parts around the engine that would really get me, one time the generator case cracked, it is a whole unit and can not be repaired, it cost me 10k to replace a working gen because the case was cracked. The Duke is where the name "lead sled" came from, it is a runway hog! but really flys nice. I have owned C414 and C421, the 421 was by far the better runway performer but a lot more up front money and more engine problems but a larger airplane. The 414 does not have the speed that the Duke or 421 have. If you fly the Duke much it will cost you as much in operating cost as an older C90 and your reliability in the C90 is much better.

Hope this helps

 

[sky4]

PS. There are good Dukes and bad Dukes out there, do a very good pre-buy by a good company that knows Dukes and know what you are getting into. A cheap Duke will cost you more in a very short time! This goes with any airplane but a Duke has some very expensive parts that you don't want missed.

 

[GIVDrvr]

Thanks to all for the informative and entertaining comments.