Backward hiring depts

[pilotyip]

I do not understand the prejudice against helo drivers, I know FedEx and Spirit will not count helo time. They eliminate some very qualified pilots from their process. I believe presently that about ½ of the pilots going through military training are helo drivers. My experience with them is they are easier to train into the DA-20 than civilian pilots with 1000’s of hours of MEL time. They are screened the same as all fixed wing military pilots, that helps your selection process. They have an extremely soft control touch something that helps transition into a jet. And they are disciplined, they do what they are told, if you tell them you want a minimums call at 200’ above mins, they never said "We did not do that at our last company". They learn quickly, have never failed in upgrade, and are mostly pleasant pilots to be around. Our insurance company lets us count Multi-eng helo time towards MEL minimums for upgrade. So why all the discrimination against helo drivers? I know what the answer is it is a reason like a college degree; it cuts down the size of the applicant pool, it has nothing to do with success in flying an airplane. Also probably no helo background guys in the hiring process. Such is the nature of our business

 

[FracCapt]

Our insurance company lets us count Multi-eng helo time towards MEL minimums for upgrade.

That makes absolutely no sense. Flying a multi engine helicopter is like flying a single engine helicopter - except when one quits, you still have on turning the rotors(and a resultant loss of performance). It doesn't bother me one bit that they count it...but it doesn't make sense.

 

[Snakum]

Having flown a couple hours in an R-22, I have to wonder about the anti-helo predjudice, as well. It appeared to me to be infinitely more difficult than flying FW, requiring a tremendous amount of skill and fine motor control. I could safely play in the patch in a C150 in my first ten hours or so, however, it looked to me as if it'd take four times that to safely fart around in the Robinson.

Flying a helo was like rubbing your stomach and patting your head, while standing on one leg and singing the national anthem of Lithuania and farting "Hotel California" thru a kazoo stuck up your butt.

And that was just learning to hover.

Minh

 

[pilotyip]

Helo to MEL

Military does it all the time, I took a Huey driver to F/O in a P-3, you explain how the engine out works and he practices for a flew flights and he passes a check ride like a guy with a 1,000 hours MEL. Active duty guys go from helo to MEL on a regular basis with no real problems. ME helo guys have to handle 50% power losses and mange theri energy the same as a fixed wing pilot. Flying MEL is not that big a deal, and your narrow view of flying is manifest. For those of you that think this is BS, you have never trained a Mil Helo in fixed wing or you have never flown an advanced helo. Most of the modern mil helo's have glass cockpit, auto throttle, etc.

 

[jergar999]

There is no doubt in my mind that helicopters are a whole different set of rules, and difficult ones to master. I fly fixed-wing air ambulance, and the hospital also has a Bell 222. Shortly after the rotor guys did their last checkride while dual controls were installed I jumped into the 222 with an experienced pilot and tried to fly the thing. He put it into a beautiful hover and gave me the controls. I very quickly learned a new respect for what these guys do, as I made the thing move in what seemed to be every direction at once. I am considering adding on the rotor license, not for anything work related, just to have it. I have a feeling it will take a while.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

My advice to any Army Warrant who flies helos and doesn't have a degree will most certainly be to make sure they apply to USA Jet.

 

[AA717driver]

Yeah, it's great that they can fly but most of 'em wear cowboy boots... TC

P.S.--TWA hired a few helo pilots and they were great pilots. They tended to try to kick someone's a$$ when they got drunk, though...

 

[pilotyip]

Hugh degree doesn't matter

We hire USMC, Navy and USAF helo pilots with degrees, we do not discriminate against qualifed pilots just because they have a degree.

 

[N817AA]

They aren't backwards. When was the last time, you saw a Spirit or Fedex helicopter.

 

[FN FAL]

I suppose PHI will accept my caravan pic time towards a job flying choppers? Not trying to be smart, but I don't think chopper places are interested in my fixed wing resume.

I don't want to label all chopper pilots, but we got an air guard helicopter guy that can flat spot the heck out of the tires on a caravan. From what I heard, he had a blow out once due to standing on the caravan brakes.

Rumor has it that he is afraid to slow the plane down to come in and make a landing. So he comes in hot, forces the plane on the runway, chops the power and stands on the brakes.

 

[enigma]

I do not understand the prejudice against helo drivers,............................................................................................................................ And they are disciplined, they do what they are told,

The above quote says all that needs to be said about your viewpoint.
Your a manager who flies, with the emphasis on manager. I don't begrudge you that, but I really wish that you'd be a little more honest about your motives for posting.

As a manager, you need people who are indebted to you, are easily lead, and who are controllable. I can't think of a more controllable pilot than a helo guy with nowhere else to go. In short, I'd expect you to favor pilots that will be beholden to you. But that's not an endorsement of their qualifications, it's you hiring people that you are comfortable with.

Now let me ask, At what level of fixed wing experience will you put a military trained help pilot in the seat of a Falcon? As hard as it might be for you to believe, I have friends who fly helos for Uncle Sam, and one in particular wishes to transition to the civilian world when he retires. He has a PPL SEL with a few hundred hours. How much more time does he need before you'll hire him?


Finally, your "do as they're told" statement bugs me in one other way. Are you implying that other pilots do NOT do as they are told? For me, I fully expect to comply with any legal/safe order from my employer. ALPA or not, I don't just go around ignoring my superiors. I don't know any other pilots, civilian nor military, who go around ignoring orders. Give us an order than complies with the FARs, our contract, and is not obviously unsafe and we ALL execute that order. But, we don't cotton to being sent out on a four day trip that turns into a twenty-four day trip, so we tend to be a little more independent than someone who can't get a job anywhere else.

I can and will follow orders. I will not suffer abusive treatment just because I have no other options.


edit: I have taught USArmy helo pilots to fly fixed wing. They have a danged hard time maintaining speed on approach and they struggled with a normal climb out. Once the 150 reached normal cruise speed, those guys were Sh t-hot. The stall series could sometimes be fun

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

And another thing. You love to brag about how your pilots move easily to passenger carriers and about how they go to Spirit even in absence of degrees; yet you are currently calling our hiring department "backward". Which part of our people services department do you like, the one that gives an uneducated freightdog a chance, or the one that rejects Army helo pilots?

regards,
enigma

 

[FracCapt]

Military does it all the time, I took a Huey driver to F/O in a P-3, you explain how the engine out works and he practices for a flew flights and he passes a check ride like a guy with a 1,000 hours MEL. Active duty guys go from helo to MEL on a regular basis with no real problems. ME helo guys have to handle 50% power losses and mange theri energy the same as a fixed wing pilot.

Flying a twin engine helicopter is NOTHING like flying a twin engine airplane. The REAL difference between a ME helo and airplane is that the helo guy can set down anytime, anywhere when one engine quits, if necessary. Most ME helo's still have respectable performance with one engine out - they may not hover(most will, not all), but they will maintain altitude/airspeed in forward flight. Of course, the service ceiling and hovering altitudes drop dramatically... I think that most helo guys could do the same thing that you say the ME helo guys do. Helo's are harder to fly - plain and simple. Energy management is a much bigger issue in a single helo than a ME helo. I still don't understand why your insurance would count ME helo toward FW Multi time...there are no similarities other than the fact that there are two sets of gauges.

For those of you that think this is BS, you have never trained a Mil Helo in fixed wing or you have never flown an advanced helo. Most of the modern mil helo's have glass cockpit, auto throttle, etc.

I've done both. My opinion stands. BTW, I know of only one helo that has "auto throttle".. All turbine helicopters, and some piston, have a GOVERNOR that automatically keeps rotor/engine RPM in the green arc. Some have protection devices so that if the pilot pulls too much collective, the engine will limit power output to maintain maximum RPM....but some don't have that feature.

 

[pilotyip]

For Enigma

I think Spirit has a 4000 hour minimum fixed wing to apply. Hired by Spirit from USA Jet, 4200TT all fixed wing 2200 MEL, No DC-9 type 1200 TJ PIC, 2000 SEL, not even interviewed by Spirit 4500TT 3300 fixed wing, 3200 MEL DC-9 type, 2200 TJ PIC, 1200 Helo time. Which makes a guy a better pilot 1500 hours of C-150 single pilot time or 1300 hour multi eng turbin multi crewed helo? I think companies are making decisions that some how don't make any sense. And prehaps 'backwords" is not the right word to use, it has some negative vibes, how how "not adequately enlightened" or "broader hiring profile".

 

[pilotyip]

Trained Armyhelo pilots

I have also done the SEL ad-on to a comm Rotor wing, those guys are much easier to teach than a straight dual number first flight student. Yes they have tendency to get slow on final but when instructed they work out of it quickly.

 

[pilotyip]

For Frac Daddy

I used Spirit and Fedex becasue those are the only two I know of that will not count helo time. If you are a NJ guy they hired a helo guy with a total 4000 TT, 600 fixed wing, 500 MEL, 400 TJ MEL. He made CE560 Captain in ground school, he did just find. It is brain power transferring between types of airplanes. True there are many differences in the way the airplanes fly, but a good training program takes care of that. We do have a minimum of 100 fixed wing MEL, and thne we count 50% of MEL helo time to the hiring total of 750 MEL, and we count 100% of helo time towards the 1200TT minimum. We make too much of a big deal out of this what you have flown stuff, anyone with the skill and desire can learn to fly anything if put into the proper training prgram. Helo pilots certainly have the skill and if they want to fly fixed wing they have the desire.

 

[bobbysamd]

Backwards HR v. Backwards management

As a manager, you need people who are indebted to you, are easily lead, and who are controllable. I can't think of a more controllable pilot than a helo guy with nowhere else to go. In short, I'd expect you to favor pilots that will be beholden to you . . . . Finally, your "do as they're told" statement bugs me in one other way . . . . . we don't cotton to being sent out on a four day trip that turns into a twenty-four day trip, so we tend to be a little more independent than someone who can't get a job anywhere else.

I can and will follow orders. I will not suffer abusive treatment just because I have no other options . . . .

(emphasis added)

No wonder Yip pushes his "college is not necessary" argument so hard. (For those who aren't familiar, Yip advocates building hours out of high school instead of going to college, thus getting a leg up, he thinks, on the college-educated individual who hasn't started flying.)

He probably figures that uneducated, meaning "unsophisticated", people can be pushed around at management's will, as opposed to the more-educated, who, in his mind, are enlightened, and would be more apt to force management to play fair.

Yip had written elsewhere about a 20-year-old he hired as a DA-20 FO, calling this person a model for success. He talked about how this new-hire would be making $33K. (I was well into my 40s before I was making that kind of money, in any job.) Of course, what Yip fails to mention is his company requires crews to carry pagers and to remain within 20-30 minutes of the airport, packed and ready for trips that could last days. What kind of lifestyle is that, for anyone, to never be sure when you might be at home? The kid probably has no clue what he's getting into. No wonder Yip likes to hire people like that. You couldn't pay me enough to have a "schedule" like that.

I would agree with Yip that helo pilots make excellent airplane pilots. I had two helo pilots as students. One was a former Huey driver in Korea who wanted to add on his airplane instrument rating. He was my second signoff. He was an excellent airplane pilot. The other was an Army reserve helo pilot who was taking the MAPD course. He, too, was good.

Helo pilots deserve the same consideration as airplane pilots, but for their abilities, not because they might be beholden to a "benevolent" manager.

 

[pilotyip]

24 days?

This is the on-demand business, it is demanding upon flight crews, we know that. It is a great place to work until you find your career position. This is evidenced by the fact no one is going anywhere right now, and that is why we are not hiring. No one works on their scheduled days off, unless they want to. This year we have had one pilot who did not get home on his day off and was forced to stay on the road one extra day. And this was due to a trip canx late in the day and no airlines travel available from ELP at that time to get him home by 0600 the next. The "do as they are told" did not have anything to do with sophistication, it was referring to the training environment, these helo pilots have been through structured training programs and understand course structure and learn to fly the USA Jet way and not the way they did it at their last job. As to the college degree, it has nothing to do with sophistication, yes college grads, particularly from name places then to be more sophisticated. But college degrees have become so universal with the, "pay your fee get your B places" that the correlation between two becomes undistinguishable. We hire mostly college grads, because as I have said the degree has become universal. But we do not purposely look for non grad as per your assertion. It is just we know it has nothing to do with being a good pilot and will hold back a great candidate for the lack of a degree. On our placement test, the non grads often outscore the college grads, which is a measure of basis intelligence. In fact we think the sophistication we purposely screen for during our hiring process gives us a leg up in this business, you not find a finer group of pilots in the non-sked business.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring

As to the college degree, it has nothing to do with sophistication, yes college grads, particularly from name places then to be more sophisticated . . . .

Sopisticated, in the present context, meaning astute, knowing better, more apt to question something than following blindly. I should have made that distinction in my last post, sorry.

On our placement test, the non grads often outscore the college grads, which is a measure of basis intelligence. In fact we think the sophistication we purposely screen for during our hiring process gives us a leg up in this business, you not find a finer group of pilots in the non-sked business.

Even if you do say so yourself, Yip, because you do the hiring.

I would say now in all sincerity and with complete lack of sarcasm that it really is too bad that the majority of aviation hiring managers employ such narrow profiles when screening candidates. If they were just a little less strict they would get more loyal employees and employees who would sign on for the long haul, and, as a result, less turnover and fewer training expenses. Oops, I forgot; to employers, employee loyalty and working for one company for the rest of one's career are passe. Especially the former.