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BA flights cancelled by refusal of...

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Boomhauer

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Posts
58
BA flights cancelled by refusal of British pilots to fly with armed marshals on board


In another indication of the turmoil resulting from the increased security measures, an American official said that the cancellation of the British Airways flights was not in response to United States safety concerns, but rather was prompted by the refusal of British pilots to fly with armed marshals on board. The United States put other nations on notice earlier this week that it would not allow certain suspicious flights into its airspace without armed marshals on board.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/03/n...800&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=
 
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

Perhaps in the eyes of the British Airways pilots it is the United States Government that is the arrogant a$$hole. Without jumping all over me and accusing me of being a traitorous left-wing commie towel-head, just put yourselves in their shoes for a minute.

How would you as PIC of an aircraft like it if Britain or Belgium or Spain started dishing out draconian and unilateral demands on US air carriers in the way that the US Govt did last week?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the BA pilots, but just the other day someone on this board was saying how they were fed up with everyone in their company and the govt trying to usurp the Captain's authority and that the Captains (backed up by the FOs) should take back what is theirs. It seems to me that the "arrogant a$$holes" at BA are doing just that.

Just my 2 cents....fire away.
 
In light of current security concerns and the successful history of air marshals, I think they can sod off.

Keep the refusals going and BA will lose more and more $$$ and pilots their jobs.

I don't see a legitimate reason to dis-allow air marshals.
 
I don't blame them. I personally would be pretty pi$$ed off as well if I was a BA pilot and had to listen to a botched Wdumbya administration. What a joke...


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Yaegermeister said:
In light of current security concerns and the successful history of air marshals, I think they can sod off.

Keep the refusals going and BA will lose more and more $$$ and pilots their jobs.

I don't see a legitimate reason to dis-allow air marshals.



We will see who is losing the money when England locks American, United, and Delta out of Heathrow in reciprication. I would't allow armed security personel from a foriegn country on my aircraft and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it either.

I bet the rag wrappers laugh their a$$es off to see Americans tremble in fear every time they pick up their cell phone.
 
DoinTime said:
We will see who is losing the money when England locks American, United, and Delta out of Heathrow in reciprication. I would't allow armed security personel from a foriegn country on my aircraft and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it either.

I bet the rag wrappers laugh their a$$es off to see Americans tremble in fear every time they pick up their cell phone.

fantasy land, bro. We're not locking carriers out of the country - just putting some security restrictions on them.

England won't be locking any carrier out of their country. Given the political relationship between countries and the tourist money, there is just zero chance of that happening. The flights in question were shut down by the English gov't anyway, I believe, not by the BA's pilots refusal to fly with marshals on board.

If the gov't and BA complies and the pilots won't do it, they'll end up looking for jobs. Something tells me their resolve isn't as steadfast as their rhetoric pretends to be.
 
or maybe....

the BA crew felt that, given "specific, credible intelligence" the prudent thing to do would be to decline to fly the trip.

You know, those old concepts like "safety of the flight" and "this is a job, not something worth dying over".

If my gov't were that worried about my SPECIFIC flight I sure wouldn't want to be the good soldier who went hoping things were okay in the back--kevlar door or no.

I don't know how many of you had access to the FAA AvSec warnings prior to 9/11. The last one they issued, dated 9/06/01 I have framed in my office at home--it warned all US Air Carriers that SALMAN RUSHDIE was not permitted to board any US registered aircraft out of concerns for the safety of those around him because he offended a few of his fellow muslims. Talk about having your finger far from the pulse....

So yeah, If someone pulled me aside and said "Captain E., we have grave concerns about your flight but we put some guys with guns in the back, so we are pretty sure it'll all work out...."

Well, let's just say I would be coughing all the way to my AME while dialing my ALPA rep on the phone...

I gave up being a soldier when I resigned my commission. You want me to fight back--make me a federal officer. But I don't recall any cops fighting crime with a school bus. My Code of Ethics as an airline pilot requires me to think of my passengers first.

They want to go to IAD, not the OK Corral.
 
an American official said that the cancellation of the British Airways flights was not in response to United States safety concerns, but rather was prompted by the refusal of British pilots to fly with armed marshals on board.

Yeah this from the paper that brought us Jayson Blair. I would bet the reporter's brother in law emptys trash cans at Foggy Bottom and was quoted for the story...
 
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How would you as PIC of an aircraft like it if Britain or Belgium or Spain started dishing out draconian and unilateral demands on US air carriers in the way that the US Govt did last week?

I would applaud the fact these countries are not only willing to supply intelligence that would keep my fellow citizens safe, but they would also generously supply me with trained security personnell to help maintain the safety of the flight, should I choose to make the trip given the circumstances.

Here is the situation, given the elements you provided. I'm flying to someplace across the ocean, let's say Spain, since you mentioned it. Spain says they have intellignece that there could be some bad people who would try to take over my airplane. OK, that's pretty scary. BUT, they also say that they have some of their best people ready to board to keep order should that be necessary. Since we do not know that there is a CERTAIN event about to happen, in which case I would not make the flight, I would welcome the presence of people who can counter the possible bad guys with deadly force if neccessary in order to keep myself, my crew, and my passengers alive.

BA won't stop coming here, and it is far better to ground a flight that will be used as a flying bomb than it is to fear offending some folks who think we are too heavy handed.



I bet the rag wrappers laugh their a$$es off to see Americans tremble in fear every time they pick up their cell phone.

Who are they seeeing tremble in fear? I don't know anyone who is afraid. Are you? :eek:
 
OK, besides Timebuilder, lets have a show of hands...who would gratefully welcome armed foreign officials aboard their aircraft at their home base?

Who would remain grateful and happy if they were told they had to carry those armed foreigners or not go?

Rhetoric aside, I bet the true answer is "not many".
 
OK, besides Timebuilder, lets have a show of hands...who would gratefully welcome armed foreign officials aboard their aircraft at their home base?

Would these armed officials be from the same country that saved us (speaking as a European for the purpose of this discussion) from Nazi takeover in the forties, and beyond? The same country that stood against the USSR and created a balance of power that stabilized Europe? The same country that is the only major force for good in this tainted world?

Oh. That country.

Who would remain grateful and happy if they were told they had to carry those armed foreigners or not go?

If I remain alive and able to still complain about their presence on an internet message board after the flight instead of being pulverized to dust in a conflagration of jet fuel and building materials, then yes. I'm VERY happy about that.

In fact, the smart move is to put El AL in charge of security on those flights. They don't worry about offending anyone, they get the job done, period.
 
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Ahhh...I see...it all comes down to that old standard. It's OK for the US to do whatever it wants because Europe owes the US for saving it from countless foes in the past century. Since Spain doesn't fit the profile you offer, I suppose your initial example was in error.

My sincerest apologies for assuming that other countries enjoyed the same sovereign rights as the the US.
 
Would not bother me to have foreign security services armed on my airplane. I have flown foreign military in my A/C with their weapons in the past. I fly armed and provided I knew who they were, I would have no problems.

I would not allow third world or raghead security officers armed on my flights, because in general their training is sub-standard at best.

Since when is "unilateral" such a bad word? Seems to me this country was built on unilateral action. I would not hesitate to always act in my best interests without consulting my neighbors.

You should also consult the news wires. AP and Reuters both have stories quoting British Govt officials as saying they cancelled the flights and that BA had nothing to do with it. I would bet that we have another liar at the newspaper of record, or he quoted the janitor at the State Dept.
 
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Are you guys really that stupid? Ever considered NY Times might be wrong on this one, but then again, I see "timebuiilder" is involved in the thread and I'm no longer suprised.
 
I see "timebuiilder" is involved in the thread and I'm no longer suprised.

That's me, I run the NY times, didn't you know? Al Gore and I invented the internet, and I am instituting a full day kindergarden for liberals who hate the United States.

Always a good feeling to be insulted by Dieterly. I know it's going to be a good year.

:D
 
bart said:

Since when is "unilateral" such a bad word? Seems to me this country was built on unilateral action. I would not hesitate to always act in my best interests without consulting my neighbors.

That's interesting. To some, and that includes me, it seems this very attitude is the underlying cause of many of the problems that we as a nation now face.

I find it humorous that you find it OK to act in our own best interest without consulting our negighbors, yet if one of our neighbors decides to act in its best interests without consulting us, we find that highly objectionable and respond by acting like spoiled children and selling "Freedom Fries" in the nation's capital.

If British pilots find armed individuals (whether theirs or ours) objectionable in the cabins of their aircraft it is fully reasonable for them to decline to operate those aircraft, regardless of whatever cowboy attitudes may prevail in the United States, and whether or not this results in cancellation of the flight.

As professionals we may differ as to the safety implications of discharging weapons in the cabins of pressurized airliners. Many of "us" (Americans) also think that way. We just don't happen to have as strong opinions re the gun-toting advocates (given our relatively short history of attempting to dictate through the muzzle of a six-shooter or the mouth of a cannon). The very least we could do is acknowledge that the British are every bit as competent and professional as we are and have a right to disagree and make their own determination ..... without the benefit of all the negative rhetoric.

Our "my way or the highway" attitudes have already cost us far more than most of you seem to realize or ever wanted to pay, and will undoubtedly cost even more in the future.

As for those who advocate we adopt the Israeli model, let us not forget that their policy is to destroy the airliner (using their marshalls) rather than allow it to be highjacked. The only real difference in our method is that we are prepared to shoot down the airliner with a missle fired from outside by an American pilot, so we're already there (just a different method). The British seem to have a better idea ... don't fly the trip.

The Israeli effort to prevent terrorism by becoming even more deadly terrorists themselves has failed to prevent terrorist attacks for more than 50 years. Perhaps we might do better to emulate a different "teacher".

The use of miltary power, or six shooters, or any other type of weapon, whether by "super powers" or no-count powerless, has never accomplished anything other than destruction and mass killing since the advent of mankind. It has never prevented or solved any of man's problems, real or imagined yet we continue to repeat it, time and again. Even the scriptures tell us that the Old Testament protocol of "an eye for an eye" is not the way. Will we ever learn?
 
surplus1, I could not have said it any better. Very well put. I hope the British pilots and all other foreign carriers do not give in to this botched administration and that they continue to fight against these ridiculous things. It has gotten to the point of being a complete joke.

I just hope that the damage that this cowboy has caused since he has taken office will be able to be corrected in a timely manner when the new administration takes over..

what a joke,

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The Israeli effort to prevent terrorism by becoming even more deadly terrorists themselves has failed to prevent terrorist attacks for more than 50 years. Perhaps we might do better to emulate a different "teacher".


Sharon and all of them are nothing more than terrorists, I hope the Palestinians continue to go after them harder than ever and not stop until they are left alone and the killing of innocent women and children come to an end.

In fact, the smart move is to put El AL in charge of security on those flights. They don't worry about offending anyone, they get the job done, period

TB, what a joke... Those jews are among the most hated people in the world, that is why they have to have that kind of security.


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