Aviation week LCC article southwest spirit

[navigatro]

Would you rather the company cancel flights or be overstaffed?

I don't pick up open time because I am lazy..but I thank the pilots who are helping the company from going out of business.

You are a real piece of crap.

One day, when you are furloughed, you will see the other side of this issue.

It is not about socialism, or idealism, it is about doing what is right.

 

[Chief Pilot]

greenlight,

You beat me to it! LMAO about Fred Smith writing "...the Wealth of Nations."

Beetle sounds like a management shill. He'd rather have fewer employees with no quality of life who ultimately leave for greener pastures. This actually increases long term costs due to training and inefficiencies bred from discontent. The employees begin to look on that particular employer as a stepping stone rather than a career.

You will merely only retain the mediocre, but lose the best and brightest.

 

[Chief Pilot]

I predict that Beetle will live long and prosper. He's intelligent, educated, thoughful and confident enough in his position to engage others in a debate.

Intelligent? Educated? Please tell me you're joking.

 

[regionalcap]

Why do furloughed pilot deserve my money any more than a poor Haitian who is forced to eat dirt. Yes...many people in Haiti eat dirt to help prevent the fealing of starvation. It is a slow death.

Or, why does a furloughed pilot deserve my money any more than my recently divorced aunt who is trying to support her two kids on the salary of a part time gate agent?

I think the point is...there are many people in need of charity. This is America, and I should be able to choose what I do with MY money.

You can see how this guy feels about his fellow pilot.

 

[Beetle007]

You can see how this guy feels about his fellow pilot.

You are correct. Thanks for pointing this out.

I feel the same about my fellow pilots as my fellow family, fellow Americans, and fellow humans.

I recently cancelled my cable because I figured it was a waste of $35 I could be using for a better purpose. How many furloughed pilots still have cable? How many starving children have cable? Think of it as my triage of charity. And, now the union is telling me who needs MY money the most.

There is a contradiction in my opinion because I would gladly give to a fund to help the furloughed pilots. I just don't like other people telling me what to do with my money. It is no different than when the government thinks they can control my money better than me.

 

[Beetle007]

I am obviously not saying I disagree with donating to furloughed pilots. I disagree with requiring how other people should donate their money. Donations are motivated by self-interest and are governed by the laws of economics and utilitarianism. Requiring donations decreases the efficiency of this process.

In economics, happiness is measured in utils. People make donations in order to increase their utils of happiness (i.e., self-interest). Donations have the added benefits of producing the utils for the recipients.

The efficiency of donations can be measured as the ratio of utils of happiness for each dollar donated. Unfortunately, when you require donations it decreases total utils gained by the donor. To a lesser extent, it also decreases the utils gained by the recipients because they know it wasn’t 100% voluntary.

The total utility gained in any donation can be measured by multiplying the dollars and efficiency. I think that a voluntary donation fund (set up properly) could have produced greater total utility and possibly even more dollars

I find it ironic that the same organization that requires me to donate money to furloughed pilots is simultaneously taking dues out of the last paychecks pilots will ever receive from now bankrupt airlines.

 

[ultrarunner]

People who pick up open time while guys are furlough are only looking out for themselves. All they care about is getting a bigger check for the month. Period.

I don't completely disagree with that statement, but who else is going to look out for them? IMHO, it's the direct result of, and underscores the lack of any help whatsoever from the union for their own members who hit the street.

When a union takes care of their own, members don't back-stab.

Ask anyone at the UAW or IAM!

 

[Chief Pilot]

Ultrarunner,

You talk about a "union" as if it is some independent entity with a building and staff that the pilots pay dues to. Something that we must do because everyone else seems to be doing it. A Union IS the group of pilots that are members. That's why unity, especially in times of trial, is so important. You can justify why some people do selfish things all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that those people's behavior runs contrary to the spirit of unity.
There are, in fact, many more members of the union who exhibit that spirit than those who don't.

Beetle is in the minority and he uses metrics to justify his selfishness and lack of moral compass when it comes to helping people he works with and supposedly identifies with.

I'm just curious, ultrarunner, have you ever been a part of an airline union? People tend to focus on short-comings of "The Union", but in reality we should all look in the mirror, because those are our short-comings.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ultrarunner,


I'm just curious, ultrarunner, have you ever been a part of an airline union? People tend to focus on short-comings of "The Union", but in reality we should all look in the mirror, because those are our short-comings.

I would agree with what you say, regardless of how you're defining union and unity.

Bottom line is airline union members have historically failed miserably when the chips are down for its members. So they do what they can to survive. Sadly, that is what it has come to.

Oh, and to answer your question, yes, ALPA.

And to answer one you didn't ask, no, nerver picked up open-time during furlough...only banged in sick.

That work ya!?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Normally when I try to quote someone, I at least get their name right...

That is one of the basic principles of capitalism in Fred Smith's The Wealth of Nations.

Individual self-interest often has the unintended consequence of benefiting everyone in the long run. (i.e., higher efficiency, and goods focused on needs)

 

[boomlrd]

Beetle007 = ASS, I was unemployed because of people like you, thankfully I found another job and will not be returning to Spirit with this recall, what a waste of their money on my A-320 type, thanks Spirit!

 

[Beetle007]

Beetle007 = ASS, I was unemployed because of people like you, thankfully I found another job and will not be returning to Spirit with this recall, what a waste of their money on my A-320 type, thanks Spirit!

How were you unemployed because of people like me? Did I somehow cause the airline to get rid of 7 airplanes?

Were you the same type of person who wanted to require airlines to have 3 pilots on the DC-9 and have a pilot sit in the jumpseat on all flights? This is the same mentality that expects the airline to staff the airline the same as it did when we had 7 more airplanes.

FYI...I haven't flown open time. I enjoy my time at home. But, I will not throw stones at people who pick up open time. Senior captains have been here much longer than me...and I have no right to control their career or prevent them from saving for retirement.

 

[enigma]

Beetle007 = ASS, I was unemployed because of people like you, thankfully I found another job and will not be returning to Spirit with this recall, what a waste of their money on my A-320 type, thanks Spirit!

Sorry boom, Beetle is not an ASS. He's somewhat naive in that he is actually willing to attempt an intelligent debate of issues an internet bulletin board.

If you notice, Beetle has stated that he is NOT picking up OT. He isn't your problem. Your problem is that you work in an industry that is controlled by the RLA. If you don't like that, I suggest that you go on a crusade to get the law re-written so that we could have our cake and eat it too.

Let me explain, Airline pilots want all of the protections of a seniority based system, yet want none of the drawbacks of the system that provides said seniority.

 

[enigma]

How were you unemployed because of people like me? Did I somehow cause the airline to get rid of 7 airplanes?

Were you the same type of person who wanted to require airlines to have 3 pilots on the DC-9 and have a pilot sit in the jumpseat on all flights? This is the same mentality that expects the airline to staff the airline the same as it did when we had 7 more airplanes.

FYI...I haven't flown open time. I enjoy my time at home. But, I will not throw stones at people who pick up open time. Senior captains have been here much longer than me...and I have no right to control their career or prevent them from saving for retirement.

[

[/quote]

Are you people paying attention?

 

[Beetle007]

What I have really been trying to figure out is if refusing to pick up open time and junior assignments is a practical solution that "creates jobs" or a psychological solution that "destroys jobs." Or maybe it has neutral effect. I don't know the answer and I think it probably varies from airline to airline and on the circumstances.

If your goal is to increase the number of employees per airplane then you are on the losing side of this battle. The company, capitalism, and economics will all be working against you.

Do you expect the company to recall ALL furloughed pilots when we have 7 less airplanes?

More importantly, do you think that pilots and flight attendants refusing to pick up all Open Time and Junior Assignments will help or hurt the airlines attempt to expand and bring back ALL furloughed pilots?

 

[boomlrd]

7 Less airplanes? Are you sure about that?

 

[gatorbird]

7 Less airplanes? Are you sure about that?

There have been 7 aircraft missing from the flowsheets for the last month or so. Where these aircraft are is a great mystery. When this whole "shrink to profitability" program began, JC stated that 5 would be returned to the leasor and 2 would sit idle until market positions warranted their use.

Do we have 2 aircraft sitting in a dark corner somewhere in DTW or elsewhere? We can only hope. This company does not provide either up-to-date or accurate information very frequently.

Patiently awaiting ANY information,

gator

 

[limpyoke]

Three airplanes are parked in MIA on the 36th street side.