Automation / FMS use at your company

[bbwest]

Gents, I humbly request your help. I was hired at a part 91 operation several months ago to "help bring them procedurally into the current century". Old school guys who dont utilize 10% of the technology available in our 2 types of aircraft which both have Honeywell NZ 2000 FMS's.

In attempting to enhance our operation procedurally, I've proposed a few things that I'm fairly certain you do at your companies but would love some verification.

To give you a baseline of what I'm working with, when I got to this company they had all of the altitude callouts on the EGPWS turned off because "they didnt like them."

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?
6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK?

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

 

[glasspilot]

Automation good...

Yes, when on vectors it's always appropriate to extend the centreline.

PF should keep his mits off the FMS. I say below 10k but others say always. Regardless, in sterile cockpit it's always right for the PM to operate the FMS.

Two people should always be involved in route set up / changes. Ie, I make the change, you review and if you agree you command "exacute".

No one should roll wings level at a mile, day or night. VMC should be stabilised at 500 AFE (1.5 miles) and IMC at 1,000 AFE (3 miles).

PM should also make all FCP inputs when the PF is hand flying. PF should make them when the auto pilot is on.

Hope it helps...

 

[OPECJet]

Run them in dual mode. No sense in both guys having to enter the same info, or having a different route or approach set up in each. You want them with the same stuff in there, just displaying different info.

Yes on the extended centerline too, but use some common sense. If you're flying a VFR traffic pattern at a busy field, both eyes need to be outside the cockpit. Not fingering an FMS keypad putting in an extended centerline that the PF isn't going to use anyway.

My point is get the guys to use the box as intended, but don't go Nazi about how they're set up.

I'm undecided about the PM making all the FD inputs when the PF is hand flying. I'd rather do it myself than have to ask the other guy to do it. I think that needs to be left to the discretion of the pilot flying. Jut because you're handflying the airplane does not make it a high workload phase.

 

[say again]

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?
6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK?

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

1. I usually do. Great for situational awareness. Others I have flown with don't necessarily do it. Their preference.
2. The PM does the FMS work. Now if we are at cruise and are told to go direct, the PF usually handles the FMS as the PM speaks. Not really a big deal.
3. You have to be careful with building a GS as it may not be a normal 3 degree. We are able to do it and have done so. Not common. No rolling wings level that close for us, unless necessary.
4. yes we do
5. Always run our FMS's in dual mode
6. Hand fly all you want, but if it gets to busy for the PM I will put AP on and help out.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Gents, I humbly request your help. I was hired at a part 91 operation several months ago to "help bring them procedurally into the current century". Old school guys who dont utilize 10% of the technology available in our 2 types of aircraft which both have Honeywell NZ 2000 FMS's.

In attempting to enhance our operation procedurally, I've proposed a few things that I'm fairly certain you do at your companies but would love some verification.

To give you a baseline of what I'm working with, when I got to this company they had all of the altitude callouts on the EGPWS turned off because "they didnt like them."

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?
6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK?

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

1) Will build an extended centerline when there is no ILS approach available in the database for the arrival RWY.
2) Our SOP says PM makes the changes to the FMS. But if there's a a working understanding in the cockpit that nobody makes a change to the FMS until both pilots are in the loop, then either is probably ok.
3) SDL is one airport you have to be very careful of at night. The PAPI for RW21, if acquired too far to the east, will put you VERY close to the top of the mountains east of the airport. Also be careful about "building" a glideslope for visual approaches. The FMS knows the elevation at the runway END, not the TDZ, and does not factor for any displacement. You also have to make sure the angle you enter coincides with the PAPI. A default of 3.0 degrees may be insufficient. Consider RW19R @ KLAS, for example, and it's displaced threshold. if you enter 3.0 degrees to 50' above the RW end and fly the snowflake, you'll be seeing all red on the papi.
4) Yes.
5) Dual for all domestic ops. Initiated XFER for NAT, CEPAC or other international flying where the PIC believes he needs to protect the active flight plan.
6) No guidance on hand flying. Most people I fly with like to hand fly below 10,000' on departure, anyway. Sometimes higher. Arrivals are usually automated, unless otherwise briefed.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gents, I humbly request your help. I was hired at a part 91 operation several months ago to "help bring them procedurally into the current century". Old school guys who dont utilize 10% of the technology available in our 2 types of aircraft which both have Honeywell NZ 2000 FMS's.

In attempting to enhance our operation procedurally, I've proposed a few things that I'm fairly certain you do at your companies but would love some verification.

To give you a baseline of what I'm working with, when I got to this company they had all of the altitude callouts on the EGPWS turned off because "they didnt like them."

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?

I like to set that up for visuals or when the STAR calls for vectors to the final approach course. Then 1/4 of the time, the other guy dicks it up by going direct to a fix...

2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?

Our SOP is PM but in low workload conditions, policy does allow PF when the PM is otherwise engaged.

3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?

Ah, no. As stated before, stable and configured by 500 VMC (1.5 miles) or 1000 IMC (3.0 miles) but I use 1000 for VMC night as well.


4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?

Both. Most items are PM do and alert, a few critical items are challenge-response.

5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?

Our company runs dual only but one of my contract clients uses initiated transfer. Both have their good points and their pitfalls. I recommend picking one and sticking with that.

6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK?

In high traffic areas, AP usage is recommended by our FOM but is still left to the crew's discretion, as it should be IMO.

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

My primary recommendation is that if you choose to create an SOP manual incorporating more of the automation capabilities of the aircraft, be careful to distinguish between legislating procedures and legislating technique. There is a difference.

Checklist usage, callouts, what FMS mode to use, sterile cockpit, FMS programming, etc. Those are Standard Operating Procedures and should be STANDARD.

When you turn on the autopilot, how you manipulate the flight path (vert speed vs. FLCH for example), etc. as long as they are smooth, legal, and within the aircraft flight manual limitations should be left to the pilot flying.

 

[cldsfr79]

Gents, I humbly request your help. I was hired at a part 91 operation several months ago to "help bring them procedurally into the current century". Old school guys who dont utilize 10% of the technology available in our 2 types of aircraft which both have Honeywell NZ 2000 FMS's.

In attempting to enhance our operation procedurally, I've proposed a few things that I'm fairly certain you do at your companies but would love some verification.

To give you a baseline of what I'm working with, when I got to this company they had all of the altitude callouts on the EGPWS turned off because "they didnt like them."

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job?
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope. Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter?
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists?
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?
6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK?

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

Yes to all your questions.

From what I have seen, some boxes are better then others but when a pilot says they "don't trust the fms" or barely use its functions, it's usually because they don't know how. I'm not talking bad about anyone but most guys are not trained properly to use the fms to its full potential. From what I have seen at "sim" schools, they focus more on flying and passing the checkride than fms operation. Usually the idea is that if you can program a flight and shoot an approach, you're good to go. I disagree with this method and believe there should be a lot more time spent on learning the box. What makes matters worse is once someone is signed off, they rarely flip open the fms manual to learn and that creates the mentality of "not trusting" or not using the fms for what it's worth.

It's hard to deal with SOPs with a straight 91 operator since the FAA don't really require it. It takes discipline to follow rules, to have an SOP and to work as a crew. Under straight 91, I'm sure most guys out there are safe and want to go home to their family every night but there is also a large chunk that may fly non standard non crew like. And if you are flying with one of these types of guys good luck. Either try to speak up or quit, it's not worth your ticket or life. If some guys argue that 91 flying is just as safe as 135 or 121 I will point you back to monthly reports of accidents that show 91 flying has a much higher statistical accident rate than any type of operation.

 

[CRJFlyer]

1) Do you routinely extend a centerline from the runway or a fix on an approach when in the terminal area?Always have, always will. I even do it on the King Air with a moving map GPS.
2) Does the PF routinely work the FMS or is it primarily the PM's job? Usually PM, but not a real issue. Whoever isn't feeling lazy at the moment.
3) If you were going into an airport like SDL at night with no approach would you utilize the FMS to extend a centerline and build a glideslope.Yes, just don't do it with a Fed on board. Used to always do it and programmed a 3 degree(or whatever the VASI angle was showing from the AP diagram) Is it acceptable in your company to roll wings level from a 90 degree turn at night at a mile on final.........or even in the day for that matter? Not sure what you mean? Sounds like a really really short final! Although anybody could probably pull it off, IMO it is nothing more than flying like a cowboy, and eventually will bite someone in the arse. Plus it doesn't give you much wiggle room if something goes wrong.
4) Do you utilize challenge and response checklists? yes, among others.
5) Do you run the FMS in dual or intiated transfer if honeywell or have a method of verification prior to "executing" in other fms's?dual.
6) Any rules guidance your company uses regarding hand flying out of high traffic airports like LGA or JFK? just suggestions. "use automation when necessary..." other than that it's pretty much up to the pilots to decide.

Sincerely appreciate any input / thoughts

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