Attention FLOPs Pilots!!

[B19 Flyer]

How do you think this situation would play out without a union?

Without a union this is how I see the play: You work your ass off faithfully for your company. Regardess, thoughout the years, the company keeps stripping you of quality of life. After you have served your company faithfully for five to ten years, the company decides they need to make further cuts. In a feable attempt for management to save their own uwarranted bonuses they elect to sacrifice you instead.

How? Simple. They replace your $120,000/year job with a second-year pilot making $50,000/year. Now you've just given your company ten good years and you're still out in the street.

If I'm gonna loose my job I'd much rather loose it to any union deficiencies in the first couple of years rather than to managment's greed ten year's later.

________________

Here is how I see it using facts rather than theory.

It is well known that Delta was the least unionized airline, with only the pilots and the dispatchers in unions. As far as unions go, the dispatch group there is known as the most amicable amongst most unions and I've never known there to be a dispute like some of the other carriers.

Delta was the last major to be forced into bankruptcy and a big chunk of what forced was the cost of the pilot contract and unproductive work rules. Delta was also known as THE place to work in aviation. Delta managment were amongst the first to take major pay cuts and the rank and file employees shared the "pain" with very little grumbling as compared to their counterparts in other airlines that were unionized. Unions were regularly voted down, the most recent case being just a few years ago with the flight attendants. Administrative employees were happy and well taken care of. Rarely was there any internal strife such as at American or United.

Quality of life issues for the rank and file employee are not issues at Delta. So, why is it that the least unionized major airline (Delta) became the best to work at? The only reason I even mention Delta is that most pilots are not aware that Delta is largely un-unionized, and was the only major airline never to be forced into bankruptcy throughout it's history until now. I think that the record, the history and the reputation of the company speak volumes for what a largely non-unionized carrier can accomplish. No other major airline in history can brag about that the way that Delta can.

To some respects, I can say that I'm a "student" of the industry. Those that only listen to their union counterparts only hear what they want to hear and don't look at both sides of the issue. Before you drink the union kool-aide, educate yourself on the history of unions and aviation both pre and post de-regulation. The common thread you want to look for is how a union strengthened the entire company and provided for long term growth and job security for their membership. It's a thread you will be unable to find, especially after de-regulation in the '70's. American, USAir, United have all undertaken massive changes within their companies and lost much of their their benefits and pensions because they were too expensive to maintain. It's a free country, and you have the right to vote for a union if you would like. History has not treated unionized airlines well. Do your research first.


I'll leave this reply with two thoughts...

The first one is, how many Chief Pilots or pilots that become managers remain staunch union backers once they become managers and see the picture from both sides? I know very few. Once they realize the reality, they seem to see the light again and return from what I call, the "dark side." These once staunch supporters of unions nearly always hop the fence to freedom once they see the other side of the story.


And, this morning's AVWEB posted this blurb:

Administrative workers at the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) have gone on strike after rejecting a contract offer from union brass. The union says it can't afford the wage and health benefit demands of the workers given the sacrifices pilots have made in recent years...


That is poetic justice if I've ever seen it.

Fly safe! (and be careful what you ask for!)

 

[brokeflyer]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

 

[ThinAir]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

What bashing's? I see B19 Flyer posting valid arguments. I am posting nothing more than a counter agument. Isn't this the purpose of the board? To relay ideas?

I fail to see this as a bashing! Nor, do I see the topic as "dumb stuff".

 

[B19 Flyer]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

My intent isn't to "bash" unions, only to point out that historically throughout commercial aviation I believe that more airline employees have been hurt by unions than have been helped by them.

I'm simply stating, do your research before you vote. Look at the "best" scenarios (Delta dispatchers as an example. Top pay and working conditions, yet not a drag on the company) and ask yourself if the leadership at your potential union is up to the task of preserving the loyaty of the employee base, maintaining the airline in a long term fiscal health through good times and bad, and has the ability to support ALL the employees, not just those at the top of the seniority list as well as those non-union workers that rely on the unionized folks as support. My guess is that you are not going to find them.

An additional thought:

Is anybody willing to take up a collection and support those admin employees on strike up at ALPA headquarters?

If Duane and Staff have to cross a picket line to go to work, doesn't that make them SCABS?

 

[gunfyter]

Whats the point of this? FLOPS has a union. The vote is OVER.

Moreover all the monetary losses at FLOPS was achieved WITHOUT a union. So how is this a union dragging the company down? Its just Sh!!tty mangement.

Managements are capable of blowing massive dollar amounts regardless of whether there is a union on the property or not.

Now maybe if DELTA and other airline managements who were enjoying record profits before 9/11 had not lobbied against the recommendations of the GORE COMMISSION on airline security... Osama bin LaidOff would not have successfully destroyed several airliners and the airline industry. http://www.citizen.org/congress/regulations/issue_areas/faa/articles.cfm?ID=6215

 

[Ultra Grump]

All I ask is one example where a union has unilaterally taken a pay cut to save the jobs of ALL it's members to prove me wrong.

Air Tran, post-9/11/01.

...Delta is largely un-unionized, and was the only major airline never to be forced into bankruptcy throughout it's history until now. I think that the record, the history and the reputation of the company speak volumes for what a largely non-unionized carrier can accomplish. No other major airline in history can brag about that the way that Delta can.

What about Southwest, one of the most heavily-unionized airlines?

Look at the "best" scenarios (Delta dispatchers as an example. Top pay and working conditions, yet not a drag on the company)...

And here I thought I read that Delta was in bankruptcy...

 

[gunfyter]

Whoops...

Here is an example of why you need IBT1108. The FAA is getting inquiries. Why? Obviously, pilots have questions because management is telling them they can do things that are OUTSIDE of the REGULATIONS.

FAA Solicits Industry Comment on Part 135 Flight Time and Rest Rules
Recently, FAA has received several requests for interpretation of sections 135.263(d) and 135.267(b), (d), and (e). The FAA intends to clarify two issues on which it has previously stated an opinion, namely: (1) Whether late arriving passengers or cargo may be considered an unforeseen circumstance or circumstance beyond the certificate holder's or crewmember's control under section 135.263(d); and (2) whether the rest period under section 135.267(d) must be received in a timely manner. FAA will consider whether to recede from statements or suggestions in prior interpretations that late arriving passengers or cargo are an unforeseen circumstance, because such statements or suggestions may not represent good safety policy. FAA also will reconsider interpretations related to the 14-hour rest period, because some statements or suggestions may not represent a valid interpretation of section 135.267(d). For more information, read the Federal Register Notice at:
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/FAA-2005-23438.pdf

​