Attention FLOPs Pilots!!

[p3hawk]

Loser

Hey dispatcher, if you went to college, like you said you did. You obviously failed, hence the reason Flops hired you. Oh, could you mow my yard please ?

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Flight Options dispatchers rule!!!

The dispatchers at Flight Options have got our backs. It's the schedulers that are misguided. The poser obviously isn't one of our dispatchers.

 

[cjdriver]

P3Hawk

I sure wish I would have gone to college, maybe I would have become an engineer for McDonnell Douglas before I did (age 21). Or maybe I would have worked as an engineer for a tech startup that went public and made me a millionaire at 35 a little earlier than that. But who knows, if I'd have gone to college, maybe I'd just be flying someone else's airplane, where they want to go, when they want go, for $50k/year like some people I know (and which I did for awhile). Instead, I'm flying myself around in my own airplane for business, bringing home substantially more than $100k/yr, flying jet's for fun. What do you think, should I go back to college?
Not to come off too heavy here, but I'm offended by your remark, and could rattle off a number of very succesful people that never went to college, or even finished high school. One I can think of is the billionaire in Tulsa that owns the hangar on the northwest side of the airport filled with G4's and 5's, and toys of all size. He has a 6th grade education. Check the attitude.

 

[p3hawk]

no offense intended

Got that one from my own family, also. "look at your brother no college and he's mak'in $$$" The original poster brought up the "when I was in college thing" . Anyway, yes I know millions out there very successful. no degree.

I thought It was a nice ticket to have at the time.
Cheer's P3

 

[jetwash]

Dispatcher,

Don't forget your job and the whole OCC could be out sourced to India in a blink of an eye. They have college graduates there as well.

There could be 3 people doing your job for half as much as you are earning. They have computer there as well as telephones and lots of smart people.
( Have you ever called your computer tech support)

All of those savings can then go to pay the professional pilots who provide a safe and reliable service to our passengers. When management starts cutting do you think they will be loyal to you since you supported them? Just ask the SFO's how loyal management was when they cut their pay.
Atleast the pilots will be able to have a voice through the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

voice through the union

When management starts cutting do you think they will be loyal to you since you supported them? Just ask the SFO's how loyal management was when they cut their pay.

Atleast the pilots will be able to have a voice through the union.[/quote]


And here is the beauty of the union voice:

There are 1000 pilots making say... $100,000 each per year. Times get tight (for any reason) and the decision is made to renegotiate the contract. The company and the union mutually decide that a 25% cut is reasonable. Now, here is how the 25% is administrated:

Basic union philosophy is to keep 750 pilots at $100,000 a year, rather than keep 1000 pilots at $75,000 a year.

They protect only those with the higher salaries. Those that are on the bottom of the seniority list get furloughed. Now, to quote you above, will your union be loyal to you since you paid loyally paid your dues?

If you honestly believe that a union is going to protect you, think twice and educate yourself on the word "loyalty." I've been around a long time and have never personally witnessed a union protect their own members by taking a pay cut to protect all it's pilot members from getting furloughed. I have however, repeatedly watched loyal dues paying union pilots get furloughed while their comrades continue to work without a pay cut. The union version of "sacrifice" is to sacrifice the jobs of the bottom of the seniority list so the upper side of the seniority list can keep their paycheck.

I understand that this post will anger a lot of loyal union members. All I ask is one example where a union has unilaterally taken a pay cut to save the jobs of ALL it's members to prove me wrong.

I have yet to see a single union action since deregulation that has truly supported their members and strengthened the company. Each group has taken the cash and has pushed some airlines to the edge and into bankruptcy. The mechanic's union pushed Eastern out of business. The union members will complain that a dozen or so top management officials have golden parachutes but will never mention the international 747 or 777 captain making 260K a year sitting at home on reserve that is flying no revenue and needs to schedule sim time to stay current. (Kinda blows the whole risk and responsibility thing about flying passengers to earn the money, eh?)

For those that want a union, be careful what you wish for....

 

[Diesel]

well it looks like FLOPS found their own version of FamilyGuy in Fracdispatcher.

Nothing more than flamebait. Probably just a 15 year old kid having fun.

 

[brokeflyer]

The best way to respond to a cry baby dispacher is a little known tool in the cockpit......

it's called the "parking break"


works everytime

 

[Majik]

The best way to respond to a cry baby dispacher is a little known tool in the cockpit......

it's called the "parking break"

works everytime

Read your post again. To me it sounds cocky, arrogant and unprofessional. If that's what you were going for then you don't represent me or the majority of NJA pilots.
I strongly disagree with Fracdispatcher's post but that doesn't mean you have to roll in the mud too.

 

[ThinAir]

And here is the beauty of the union voice:

There are 1000 pilots making say... $100,000 each per year. Times get tight (for any reason) and the decision is made to renegotiate the contract. The company and the union mutually decide that a 25% cut is reasonable. Now, here is how the 25% is administrated:

Basic union philosophy is to keep 750 pilots at $100,000 a year, rather than keep 1000 pilots at $75,000 a year.

They protect only those with the higher salaries. Those that are on the bottom of the seniority list get furloughed. Now, to quote you above, will your union be loyal to you since you paid loyally paid your dues?

If you honestly believe that a union is going to protect you, think twice and educate yourself on the word "loyalty." I've been around a long time and have never personally witnessed a union protect their own members by taking a pay cut to protect all it's pilot members from getting furloughed. I have however, repeatedly watched loyal dues paying union pilots get furloughed while their comrades continue to work without a pay cut. The union version of "sacrifice" is to sacrifice the jobs of the bottom of the seniority list so the upper side of the seniority list can keep their paycheck.

I understand that this post will anger a lot of loyal union members. All I ask is one example where a union has unilaterally taken a pay cut to save the jobs of ALL it's members to prove me wrong.

I have yet to see a single union action since deregulation that has truly supported their members and strengthened the company. Each group has taken the cash and has pushed some airlines to the edge and into bankruptcy. The mechanic's union pushed Eastern out of business. The union members will complain that a dozen or so top management officials have golden parachutes but will never mention the international 747 or 777 captain making 260K a year sitting at home on reserve that is flying no revenue and needs to schedule sim time to stay current. (Kinda blows the whole risk and responsibility thing about flying passengers to earn the money, eh?)

For those that want a union, be careful what you wish for....[/QUOTE]






Although, your post may carry some merit, I suggest you read the thread entitled "FlexJet... Livin' the dream".

I will be the first to admit that no union is perfect. But, one thing that I know for certain...the union has incorporated a quailty of life that I could not have received any other way.

In your post you have suggested that any union is willing to sacrifice the bottom man in order to preserve the top man. How do you think this situation would play out without a union?

Without a union this is how I see the play: You work your ass off faithfully for your company. Regardess, thoughout the years, the company keeps stripping you of quality of life. After you have served your company faithfully for five to ten years, the company decides they need to make further cuts. In a feable attempt for management to save their own uwarranted bonuses they elect to sacrifice you instead.

How? Simple. They replace your $120,000/year job with a second-year pilot making $50,000/year. Now you've just given your company ten good years and you're still out in the street.

If I'm gonna loose my job I'd much rather loose it to any union deficiencies in the first couple of years rather than to managment's greed ten year's later.

 

[B19 Flyer]

How do you think this situation would play out without a union?

Without a union this is how I see the play: You work your ass off faithfully for your company. Regardess, thoughout the years, the company keeps stripping you of quality of life. After you have served your company faithfully for five to ten years, the company decides they need to make further cuts. In a feable attempt for management to save their own uwarranted bonuses they elect to sacrifice you instead.

How? Simple. They replace your $120,000/year job with a second-year pilot making $50,000/year. Now you've just given your company ten good years and you're still out in the street.

If I'm gonna loose my job I'd much rather loose it to any union deficiencies in the first couple of years rather than to managment's greed ten year's later.

________________

Here is how I see it using facts rather than theory.

It is well known that Delta was the least unionized airline, with only the pilots and the dispatchers in unions. As far as unions go, the dispatch group there is known as the most amicable amongst most unions and I've never known there to be a dispute like some of the other carriers.

Delta was the last major to be forced into bankruptcy and a big chunk of what forced was the cost of the pilot contract and unproductive work rules. Delta was also known as THE place to work in aviation. Delta managment were amongst the first to take major pay cuts and the rank and file employees shared the "pain" with very little grumbling as compared to their counterparts in other airlines that were unionized. Unions were regularly voted down, the most recent case being just a few years ago with the flight attendants. Administrative employees were happy and well taken care of. Rarely was there any internal strife such as at American or United.

Quality of life issues for the rank and file employee are not issues at Delta. So, why is it that the least unionized major airline (Delta) became the best to work at? The only reason I even mention Delta is that most pilots are not aware that Delta is largely un-unionized, and was the only major airline never to be forced into bankruptcy throughout it's history until now. I think that the record, the history and the reputation of the company speak volumes for what a largely non-unionized carrier can accomplish. No other major airline in history can brag about that the way that Delta can.

To some respects, I can say that I'm a "student" of the industry. Those that only listen to their union counterparts only hear what they want to hear and don't look at both sides of the issue. Before you drink the union kool-aide, educate yourself on the history of unions and aviation both pre and post de-regulation. The common thread you want to look for is how a union strengthened the entire company and provided for long term growth and job security for their membership. It's a thread you will be unable to find, especially after de-regulation in the '70's. American, USAir, United have all undertaken massive changes within their companies and lost much of their their benefits and pensions because they were too expensive to maintain. It's a free country, and you have the right to vote for a union if you would like. History has not treated unionized airlines well. Do your research first.


I'll leave this reply with two thoughts...

The first one is, how many Chief Pilots or pilots that become managers remain staunch union backers once they become managers and see the picture from both sides? I know very few. Once they realize the reality, they seem to see the light again and return from what I call, the "dark side." These once staunch supporters of unions nearly always hop the fence to freedom once they see the other side of the story.


And, this morning's AVWEB posted this blurb:

Administrative workers at the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) have gone on strike after rejecting a contract offer from union brass. The union says it can't afford the wage and health benefit demands of the workers given the sacrifices pilots have made in recent years...


That is poetic justice if I've ever seen it.

Fly safe! (and be careful what you ask for!)

 

[brokeflyer]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

 

[ThinAir]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

What bashing's? I see B19 Flyer posting valid arguments. I am posting nothing more than a counter agument. Isn't this the purpose of the board? To relay ideas?

I fail to see this as a bashing! Nor, do I see the topic as "dumb stuff".

 

[B19 Flyer]

ok forget i said anything.....you can deal with the bashings how you see fit. I posted that just cause i like watchin everyone fight about dumb stuff here.

My intent isn't to "bash" unions, only to point out that historically throughout commercial aviation I believe that more airline employees have been hurt by unions than have been helped by them.

I'm simply stating, do your research before you vote. Look at the "best" scenarios (Delta dispatchers as an example. Top pay and working conditions, yet not a drag on the company) and ask yourself if the leadership at your potential union is up to the task of preserving the loyaty of the employee base, maintaining the airline in a long term fiscal health through good times and bad, and has the ability to support ALL the employees, not just those at the top of the seniority list as well as those non-union workers that rely on the unionized folks as support. My guess is that you are not going to find them.

An additional thought:

Is anybody willing to take up a collection and support those admin employees on strike up at ALPA headquarters?

If Duane and Staff have to cross a picket line to go to work, doesn't that make them SCABS?

 

[gunfyter]

Whats the point of this? FLOPS has a union. The vote is OVER.

Moreover all the monetary losses at FLOPS was achieved WITHOUT a union. So how is this a union dragging the company down? Its just Sh!!tty mangement.

Managements are capable of blowing massive dollar amounts regardless of whether there is a union on the property or not.

Now maybe if DELTA and other airline managements who were enjoying record profits before 9/11 had not lobbied against the recommendations of the GORE COMMISSION on airline security... Osama bin LaidOff would not have successfully destroyed several airliners and the airline industry. http://www.citizen.org/congress/regulations/issue_areas/faa/articles.cfm?ID=6215

 

[Ultra Grump]

All I ask is one example where a union has unilaterally taken a pay cut to save the jobs of ALL it's members to prove me wrong.

Air Tran, post-9/11/01.

...Delta is largely un-unionized, and was the only major airline never to be forced into bankruptcy throughout it's history until now. I think that the record, the history and the reputation of the company speak volumes for what a largely non-unionized carrier can accomplish. No other major airline in history can brag about that the way that Delta can.

What about Southwest, one of the most heavily-unionized airlines?

Look at the "best" scenarios (Delta dispatchers as an example. Top pay and working conditions, yet not a drag on the company)...

And here I thought I read that Delta was in bankruptcy...

 

[gunfyter]

Whoops...

Here is an example of why you need IBT1108. The FAA is getting inquiries. Why? Obviously, pilots have questions because management is telling them they can do things that are OUTSIDE of the REGULATIONS.

FAA Solicits Industry Comment on Part 135 Flight Time and Rest Rules
Recently, FAA has received several requests for interpretation of sections 135.263(d) and 135.267(b), (d), and (e). The FAA intends to clarify two issues on which it has previously stated an opinion, namely: (1) Whether late arriving passengers or cargo may be considered an unforeseen circumstance or circumstance beyond the certificate holder's or crewmember's control under section 135.263(d); and (2) whether the rest period under section 135.267(d) must be received in a timely manner. FAA will consider whether to recede from statements or suggestions in prior interpretations that late arriving passengers or cargo are an unforeseen circumstance, because such statements or suggestions may not represent good safety policy. FAA also will reconsider interpretations related to the 14-hour rest period, because some statements or suggestions may not represent a valid interpretation of section 135.267(d). For more information, read the Federal Register Notice at:
http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/FAA-2005-23438.pdf

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