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ATSB grants UAIR ext till 6/30

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Actually, I believe they have to ask the ATSB to spend the ATSB loaned money.

As for this one:"The ATSB loan GUARANTEE to U contains $00.00 taxpayer money". Who do you think the ATSB is? They are a federal entity and as all such, the bills are paid by the taxpayer. If U were to default, shut down or otherwise be unable to pay the loan back, the taxpayer would indeed be footing the bill.
 
D8, I know exactly who the ATSB is. Their guarantee is covered with collateral in the form of assets that include a minimum cash on hand at U. You say the taxpayer indeed would be footing the bill, but I don't think you know that. Go ahead and post the insider details of the latest ATSB-U agreement if you have them.
 
ATSB-U agreement Loan details = Sucking US Taxpayer dollars. Burning US taxpayer dollars. Pissing away US Taxpayer dollars. I prepose that the next "details" of the ATSB-U agreement contain a subchapter which specifies that all Ignorant U reinvention followers be excluded from mandatory helmet laws. If they happen to strike their cranium upon a hard object it's very evident that no harm will be detectable to the "believers" hard head.

What is the REINVENTION plan? A new ATSB loan to cover the first ATSB loan?
 
ATSB-U agreement Loan details = Sucking US Taxpayer dollars. Burning US taxpayer dollars. Pissing away US Taxpayer dollars. I prepose that the next "details" of the ATSB-U agreement contain a subchapter which specifies that all Ignorant U reinvention followers be excluded from mandatory helmet laws. If they happen to strike their cranium upon a hard object it's very evident that no harm will be detectable to the "believers" hard head.

What is the REINVENTION plan? A new ATSB loan to cover the first ATSB loan?

The ATSB never loaned U anything. They do oversee loan GUARANTEES, which they were extremely stingy with, and contain stringent terms to back up their guarantee. U and the ATSB just renegotiated their deal. Several folks on this board want to pretend the deal states that U doesn't have to worry about paying the lenders back. If you have that information, please post it. Here's what I have seen:

Details of the agreement will be filed with the court. The provisions are consistent with the previous agreement with the ATSB as well as the company's agreement with the General Electric Capital Aviation Services (GECAS), that it maintain minimum weekly cash balances and sufficient liquidity. Achieving these cash requirements is dependent on the company securing the cost savings in the proposals made by the company last week to the International Association of Machinists (IAM), either through ratification of the proposals by IAM members or by implementing the Bankruptcy Court's Jan. 6, 2005, decision that rejected the IAM labor contracts. Ratification for the three separate IAM workgroups is to conclude on Jan. 21, 2005.

I don't know if the ATSB will see that the lenders get all the money back that was guaranteed - neither do you. I don't know if U will survive, but it would be inconceivable for me to wish ill on them for what I think will be my own personal gain, which is the root of most of this talk, and you know it. I don't begrudge U the loan GUARANTEE, and I think it is a little hypocritical to opine about government welfare, when YOUR 121 operation received cash money from this same government organization. Just a different perspective.
 
skykid said:
. . . The ATSB never loaned U anything. They do oversee loan GUARANTEES . . .

This is accurate in that the ATSB has no "funds" to loan, only the banks have that. However, the Board allows the banks to "loan" USAirways millions with the backing (read "guarantee") of taxpayer funds should USAirways default on the bank's "loans". The lenders would recoup any outlay based upon the Board's guarantee, so it's a no lose for them should U liquidate. A Chapter 7 fiiling would then place the ATSB, with the collateral of aircraft and parts, in the same line as the rest of the creditors committee (GECAS, Chase, Airbus, Boeing, ALPA, et al) for distribution of assets to fund their liability, all at the discretion of the overseeing judge and under applicable bankruptcy statutes ("ATSB Guarantee", Section 6.01). This does make the taxpayers, in essence, creditors in a long line seeking repayment in what would likely be pennies-on-the-dollar repayment. And the language of the ATSB guarantee itself says that "the Guarantee constitutes a guarantee of payment and not collection" (Section 2.02). If you'd like to read the entire document, here is the link:

http://www.treas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/atsb/guaragree.pdf

Where I also have trouble is with the requirement under the original Guarantee application (http://www.treas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/atsb/atsbapplication.pdf) where it requires (Section 4. B., i.-iv.) a complete accounting of their business plan and exit strategy and funding, which USAirways still does not have (plan or financing) since they are still in search of $250 million exit funding. Also read Section 4. G. that specifically ties the application (and eventual lending of $$) to the effects of 9/11. It's hard to believe USAirways' continued problems (which existed to a great degree prior to 9/11) still result from an event 3 1/2 years ago, particularly after filing bankruptcy for a second time in two years with it's 3rd seperate management team.

I, too, find it inconceivable to "wish ill will" on any individual at USAirways. I truly wish the best for all effected by this drama. But setting emotion aside, and looking strictly at the risk placed upon our tax dollars for backing a guarantee to an airline losing $1.3 million per day ($700 million in 2004) with no exit financing ($250 million required) and no exit plan, I think it's prudent to have concerns.

Red
 
Hey skykid, I'm glad you cleard that up, because I was going to. thanks.
skykid said:
Willy, that's a good question, and I don't know, but every airline from American to Vanguard got CASH, twice. Just like the USSR, huh Airboard? The ATSB loan GUARANTEE to U contains $00.00 taxpayer money, and my guess is the ATSB would get their interest covered with a default. Anyone who knows better should back it up with facts.
 
dlredline,

Wow, an arguement with some logic and supporting material! The whole reason I jumped into this thread is I was tired of reading the misinformation. I don't think they will ever have an exit plan that work either, and I base that on my opinion that their route structure is severly flawed. I hope I'm wrong. Obviously neither you nor I know how much the ATSB would be left holding the bag for in a possible liquidation. Judging by the way the ATSB has acted with their guarantee authority, I'd bet they are in a good position.
 
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skykid said:
dlredline,

Wow, an arguement with some logic and supporting material! The whole reason I jumped into this thread is I was tired of reading the misinformation. I don't think they will ever have an exit plan that work either, and I base that on my opinion that their route structure is severly flawed. I hope I'm wrong. Obviously neither you nor know how much the ATSB would be left holding the bag for in a possible liquidation. Judging by the way the ATSB has acted with their guarantee authority, I'd bet they are in a good position.

Skykid,

Thanks, just trying to devoid emotion from the argument of the risks associated with the ATSB's decisions regarding USAirways. One thing to keep in mind: The cost savings provisions of the original "extension" still remain. In other words, should the IAM vote down the latest company offer Jan. 22nd (and there's considerable debate on other boards which way this will go), USAirways would likely be found in default of these provisions and the June 30th extension approved by Judge Mitchell and this latest relief would likely be revisited. A ratification by the IAM would certainly help their prospects getting to the June 30th date, but again, they still need to find $250 million exit financing somewhere (not a given), and they still need a plan to address all their operational concerns going forward. And they have less than 5 months to complete this.

Red
 
waste

100LL... Again! said:
Let it die. The taxpayers should not have to front this already dead airline.

Think of it as welfare, the money will be thrown away on some useless gov't program anyway. At least these people are working hard for it and not just taking a handout. I say give them more and take some away from the people who leech off society and do nothing for it!! Keep it up USAIR.
 
skykid said:
D8, I know exactly who the ATSB is. Their guarantee is covered with collateral in the form of assets that include a minimum cash on hand at U. You say the taxpayer indeed would be footing the bill, but I don't think you know that. Go ahead and post the insider details of the latest ATSB-U agreement if you have them.

By the ATSB allowing USAir to spend previously restricted cahs, they are tapping into the assets that would guarantee the ATSB the money that they have guaranteed. WHEN USAir defaults, the ATSB is responsible to repay those loans (hence the title of guarantor). When there are no longer enough assets left to cover the full amount of the loans, the taxpayers are left footing the bill. Understand now?
 

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