trybysky
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ATP's instructor courses???
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Hello,
I completed the training at ATP a few months back and completed my Comm-ME and the "Total CFI" program. Overall I was very pleased with the program, facilities, aircraft and in most cases the personnel. Like everything ATP has it's good points and it's bad points. I will try and elaborate for you:
1. The Programs: The Commercial ME course will only take you 3-4 days and you'll fly 4-5 training hops and then the checkride. If you study the handout that they send you in the mail and know it cold before you arrive the oral is a piece of cake. You are expected to follow the checklists to the letter and have solid instrument skills/procedures. ATP is set-up like a quasi-military/airline training environment and their are required call-outs and procedures that are well over and above what the typical GA pilot-type is accustomed to. It's all good though
2. Facilities: TOP-NOTCH, building was new and in particular the maintenance side of the house was very well organized, clean and professional. The training side was also clean and well maintained, even if it was a little messy.
3. Aircraft: In general I would say that the aircraft are very well maintained and even though I did encounter a couple of minor maintenance issues. All descrepencies are quickly corrected, and they excel at maintenace admin! Very good record-keeping and if you don't know a lot about maint. admin, you will when you leave there! All the airplanes have Garmin 430s/HSIs and a couple had slaved gyros. I only flew the older aircraft and you probably will too if you are enrolling in the CFI course(s).
4. Personnel: Most people there are friendly and professional, however, because ATP has no admin folks on site. Instructors often will be pulled 4 different directions while you are working with them. That was the only thing that royally p*ssed me off. After all you are forking over big $$$ and the phone ringing incessently or helping other students in the middle of a ground brief is pretty annoying. I'm of the mind that once I'm in my "flight box" I will not be distracted from the mission or it's preparation. This is probably a function of my military background.
Another issue with the instructors is that they KNOW the Seminole backwards and fowards...This is a good thing, however, for the most part are otherwise inexperienced. So, you are not going to "learn" anything new about flying on the whole, BUT in fairness you will be well-trained in the Seminole and ATP's procedures.
5. Miscellaneous: Keep the phrase, "Semper Gumby" in mind (always flexible as a Marine aviator once told me). On just about every day things will not go as scheduled, BUT you will get your hop out sometime during the day. Not a big deal, and you can use the time constructively or take a lot of catnaps You might feel like you are sometimes being jerked around, but I don't think it's intentional. The instructors are at the mercy of their own internal operations/dispatch system which I thought left a little to be desired from the communications standpoint.
6. CFI stuff: Be ready to study a lot and drink from a firehose. The checkrides aren't too bad. Although, the CFII in the Seminole was a bear for me because I had to shoot two partial panel approaches to a strange airport and one was single-engine! You will feel like a one-legged man in an ass-kickin' contest sometimes while you are doing the instrument stuff at first from the right seat, but it's also a lot of fun too. Did I say that? Seriously, I felt extremely sharp and confident in my abilities as an instrument pilot after I was complete. Keep in mind you'll have a HUGE advantage coming from the Comm add-on course and all the maneuvers will be cake from the right seat. Steep turns kicked my ass until one day something just clicked and they were perfect right before/during my checkride. Seminole is a nose heavy little bugger. Best of luck! Drop me a line via PM for any questions that you may have.
regards,
Ex-Navy rotorhead
I completed the training at ATP a few months back and completed my Comm-ME and the "Total CFI" program. Overall I was very pleased with the program, facilities, aircraft and in most cases the personnel. Like everything ATP has it's good points and it's bad points. I will try and elaborate for you:
1. The Programs: The Commercial ME course will only take you 3-4 days and you'll fly 4-5 training hops and then the checkride. If you study the handout that they send you in the mail and know it cold before you arrive the oral is a piece of cake. You are expected to follow the checklists to the letter and have solid instrument skills/procedures. ATP is set-up like a quasi-military/airline training environment and their are required call-outs and procedures that are well over and above what the typical GA pilot-type is accustomed to. It's all good though
2. Facilities: TOP-NOTCH, building was new and in particular the maintenance side of the house was very well organized, clean and professional. The training side was also clean and well maintained, even if it was a little messy.
3. Aircraft: In general I would say that the aircraft are very well maintained and even though I did encounter a couple of minor maintenance issues. All descrepencies are quickly corrected, and they excel at maintenace admin! Very good record-keeping and if you don't know a lot about maint. admin, you will when you leave there! All the airplanes have Garmin 430s/HSIs and a couple had slaved gyros. I only flew the older aircraft and you probably will too if you are enrolling in the CFI course(s).
4. Personnel: Most people there are friendly and professional, however, because ATP has no admin folks on site. Instructors often will be pulled 4 different directions while you are working with them. That was the only thing that royally p*ssed me off. After all you are forking over big $$$ and the phone ringing incessently or helping other students in the middle of a ground brief is pretty annoying. I'm of the mind that once I'm in my "flight box" I will not be distracted from the mission or it's preparation. This is probably a function of my military background.
Another issue with the instructors is that they KNOW the Seminole backwards and fowards...This is a good thing, however, for the most part are otherwise inexperienced. So, you are not going to "learn" anything new about flying on the whole, BUT in fairness you will be well-trained in the Seminole and ATP's procedures.
5. Miscellaneous: Keep the phrase, "Semper Gumby" in mind (always flexible as a Marine aviator once told me). On just about every day things will not go as scheduled, BUT you will get your hop out sometime during the day. Not a big deal, and you can use the time constructively or take a lot of catnaps
You might feel like you are sometimes being jerked around, but I don't think it's intentional. The instructors are at the mercy of their own internal operations/dispatch system which I thought left a little to be desired from the communications standpoint.6. CFI stuff: Be ready to study a lot and drink from a firehose. The checkrides aren't too bad. Although, the CFII in the Seminole was a bear for me because I had to shoot two partial panel approaches to a strange airport and one was single-engine! You will feel like a one-legged man in an ass-kickin' contest sometimes while you are doing the instrument stuff at first from the right seat, but it's also a lot of fun too. Did I say that? Seriously, I felt extremely sharp and confident in my abilities as an instrument pilot after I was complete. Keep in mind you'll have a HUGE advantage coming from the Comm add-on course and all the maneuvers will be cake from the right seat. Steep turns kicked my ass until one day something just clicked and they were perfect right before/during my checkride. Seminole is a nose heavy little bugger. Best of luck! Drop me a line via PM for any questions that you may have.
regards,
Ex-Navy rotorhead
trybysky
member of the month
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2002
- Posts
- 114
cookmg said:
What comes with it? How expensive was the living...they mention they have apt. that are cheaper than local hotels? Can you fill me in on those details as well? Also, is it an actual class? How many students usually?
I appreciate your response, it was very helpful...so far it looks like something I'll do...I just want to know if I need 5k or 8K.
Ryan
Hi Guys,
Let me address the question about holding a PVT ME rating prior to commencing training. No, it's not required. However, in order for it to be an add-on course. You must hold a COMM SE already. The cost for the COMM ME add-on is 1595, but this doesn't include the examiner fee. This is the only additional fee that you'll have to pay and it will be $300.00.
As for question about the CFI program cost, it can be broken down into two categories. First, for those that already have 15 hours ME as PIC it costs $4995.00. If you don't have 15 hours ME as PIC the cost is 1595. You'll recieve the requisite flying to bring you up to 15 PIC, this amounts to 13.5. Keep in mind the 1.5 hours they allow for the Comm ME checkride counts as part of the 15 hours total PIC requirement. If you are able to fly the $4995.00 program you recieve 8 hours in the Seminole. Both programs include 5 hours in the Cessna 172 to complete your spin endorsement and a review of commercial maneuvers.
As for costs, there are no "hidden" costs in the "Total CFI" program either. The airplane, ground/flight training, books and airplane for the checkride(s) are all covered. You will have to pay for the examiner (THREE checkrides, so be prepared to pay about 1K total for the checkrides).
In my particular class there were five guys, and the first three days is a review of the FARs, AIM, POH, ACs and other applicable information. Then you are basically tasked with writing, delivering, critiquing and reviewing ALL the lessons in the CFI PTS. Sounds like a lot of work, but keep in mind many of the lessons are very short, perhaps only 5-10 minutes.
As for places to stay, it all depends on what ATP locale that you use. I didn't use their provided housing, but I heard both positive and negative about it from some of the Career Pilot Program folks. If you are younger and liked living in the dorms then it might be for you. However, I think that staying in a reasonably priced motel might be a better option.
Hope this information helps, and if you have any more questions, give me a holler. Good luck guys.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
Let me address the question about holding a PVT ME rating prior to commencing training. No, it's not required. However, in order for it to be an add-on course. You must hold a COMM SE already. The cost for the COMM ME add-on is 1595, but this doesn't include the examiner fee. This is the only additional fee that you'll have to pay and it will be $300.00.
As for question about the CFI program cost, it can be broken down into two categories. First, for those that already have 15 hours ME as PIC it costs $4995.00. If you don't have 15 hours ME as PIC the cost is 1595. You'll recieve the requisite flying to bring you up to 15 PIC, this amounts to 13.5. Keep in mind the 1.5 hours they allow for the Comm ME checkride counts as part of the 15 hours total PIC requirement. If you are able to fly the $4995.00 program you recieve 8 hours in the Seminole. Both programs include 5 hours in the Cessna 172 to complete your spin endorsement and a review of commercial maneuvers.
As for costs, there are no "hidden" costs in the "Total CFI" program either. The airplane, ground/flight training, books and airplane for the checkride(s) are all covered. You will have to pay for the examiner (THREE checkrides, so be prepared to pay about 1K total for the checkrides).
In my particular class there were five guys, and the first three days is a review of the FARs, AIM, POH, ACs and other applicable information. Then you are basically tasked with writing, delivering, critiquing and reviewing ALL the lessons in the CFI PTS. Sounds like a lot of work, but keep in mind many of the lessons are very short, perhaps only 5-10 minutes.
As for places to stay, it all depends on what ATP locale that you use. I didn't use their provided housing, but I heard both positive and negative about it from some of the Career Pilot Program folks. If you are younger and liked living in the dorms then it might be for you. However, I think that staying in a reasonably priced motel might be a better option.
Hope this information helps, and if you have any more questions, give me a holler. Good luck guys.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
Please.....
For your own sake, please check with someone who performs airline interviews to hear what they feel about pilots that come out of those programs. I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me. There are many on this board who could tell you how schools like this do NOT make the most proficient pilot.
For your own sake, please check with someone who performs airline interviews to hear what they feel about pilots that come out of those programs. I could tell you, but you wouldn't believe me. There are many on this board who could tell you how schools like this do NOT make the most proficient pilot.
airjackson
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2002
- Posts
- 226
Need2AV8, you're going to have to offer up a better explanation than that. While you may disagree with ATP and other similar programs, many others have found them to be very good and cost-effective.
The programs they offer are fast-paced, intense and require 110% commitment and effort on the part of the student. ATP began business offering military pilots programs to obtain their civilian ATP rating. Obviously, these guys and gals are already proficient pilots and know how to handle a short, rigorous training program, as they have all been through military flight schools. Few would argue the quality of the relatively short military flight traing they receive. As ATP began to expand and offer civilian pilot programs, they stuck to the formula of short, intense programs aimed at those with a minimum of a private pilot's license. They have recently begun to offer the private pilot training, and I cannot comment on that particular program, since it didn't exist at the time I was a student and instructor (2000-2001 ).
As with all flight schools, the instruction will always vary to some extent by location and individual instructor. The postings by KAMAN are fairly accurate and I won't waste time debating small points.
I found the experience excellent, both as a student in the career pilot program, and as an instructor. I apparently did not run into the airline interviewer Need2AV8 spoke of, as I was hired after 6 months of instructing. So was every one of my fellow instructors. Eagle, ACA, Comair, COEX, Chautauqua, ASA, PDT, TSA, Mesaba and the list goes on. At my airline, I constantly run into people who came through ATP. I also have the pleasure of working with many pilots who attended ERAU, Comair academy and other fine schools. Almost to a person, while not regretting their choice of training, have said that had they to do it over again, they would have gone the route of ATP.
I don't have any current affiliation with ATP. Just wanted to give a different perspective. As FOX news would say, fair and balanced. Good luck with your training!
The programs they offer are fast-paced, intense and require 110% commitment and effort on the part of the student. ATP began business offering military pilots programs to obtain their civilian ATP rating. Obviously, these guys and gals are already proficient pilots and know how to handle a short, rigorous training program, as they have all been through military flight schools. Few would argue the quality of the relatively short military flight traing they receive. As ATP began to expand and offer civilian pilot programs, they stuck to the formula of short, intense programs aimed at those with a minimum of a private pilot's license. They have recently begun to offer the private pilot training, and I cannot comment on that particular program, since it didn't exist at the time I was a student and instructor (2000-2001 ).
As with all flight schools, the instruction will always vary to some extent by location and individual instructor. The postings by KAMAN are fairly accurate and I won't waste time debating small points.
I found the experience excellent, both as a student in the career pilot program, and as an instructor. I apparently did not run into the airline interviewer Need2AV8 spoke of, as I was hired after 6 months of instructing. So was every one of my fellow instructors. Eagle, ACA, Comair, COEX, Chautauqua, ASA, PDT, TSA, Mesaba and the list goes on. At my airline, I constantly run into people who came through ATP. I also have the pleasure of working with many pilots who attended ERAU, Comair academy and other fine schools. Almost to a person, while not regretting their choice of training, have said that had they to do it over again, they would have gone the route of ATP.
I don't have any current affiliation with ATP. Just wanted to give a different perspective. As FOX news would say, fair and balanced. Good luck with your training!
ATP
I went to riddle and got my Commercial multi instrument...than went to ATP for the CFI training. Overall I am very happy with the training the the instructors they have there. They were all well experienced instructors. I had the all the books and information sent out to me about 2 months in advance...so i studied my butt off....I flew with the chief pilot (forget his name) but this guy could fly and taught has much as he could in the amount of time that we had...
ATP is a thumbs up in my book..
I went to riddle and got my Commercial multi instrument...than went to ATP for the CFI training. Overall I am very happy with the training the the instructors they have there. They were all well experienced instructors. I had the all the books and information sent out to me about 2 months in advance...so i studied my butt off....I flew with the chief pilot (forget his name) but this guy could fly and taught has much as he could in the amount of time that we had...
ATP is a thumbs up in my book..
AV1ATRX
That is all.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 262
I'm going to throw in my .02 just for the heck of it....
ATP is not always good. It seems to me to be a gamble where the stakes are too high. My instructor knew so little about the Seminole that I literally taught him the systems. He had no clue and even told me so! This was not a training excercise. He had actually not been taught anything about the plane. A half-hour checkout and he was instructing. (He was from off the street, not a hire-from-within guy.)
Do some serious checking before you lay down the money.
ATP is not always good. It seems to me to be a gamble where the stakes are too high. My instructor knew so little about the Seminole that I literally taught him the systems. He had no clue and even told me so! This was not a training excercise. He had actually not been taught anything about the plane. A half-hour checkout and he was instructing. (He was from off the street, not a hire-from-within guy.)
Do some serious checking before you lay down the money.
airjackson
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2002
- Posts
- 226
When did you do your training? I will assume it was quite some time ago. During the frenetic airline hiring spree of the years prior to Sept 11, it was not uncommon for ATP to hire instructors from outside the career pilot program. Many came through one of the shorter programs such as the MEI /II. A fair number of instructors came over from Comair and ERAU. With the current downturn in the industry, instructor turnover is WAY down and a backlog of graduates exists waiting for instructor spots, thus increasing (hopefully) the competency of instructors. You certainly didn't come through JAX during the portion of time I was a student/instructor.
I agree with air jackson on most everthing he has said. I went through the program in the summer of 2002 at the Dallas location. I thouroughly enjoyed the program and would do it again in a heart beat. Some of the things others have said about the program may be true of other locations but I know for sure jax,dal, and atl are excellent and I'm sure many of the other ones are also. The aircraft I flew in dallas were very well maintained, all new aircraft at this particular location, dual garmin 430's (if you have never used the 430 it is nice). As far as ATP hiring people outside there program, it very few if any. When I went through even some of the guys graduating didn't have a garanteed job with them after the program. After completing the program to even get a job you must fly with their senior pilot and trust me if you have no clue about the aircraft and have no business flying the PA44 then you will not. The main instructor who teaches the CFI program in JAX is ex FAA and wrote about half the PTS and I believe some FAR's so he knows his Sh@#. As far as the price for the entire program was about 32,000 plus 2400 in examiners fees EXACTLY like the website states. There were no hidden fees at all, what they told me was it. The apt's are good according to what location you go to some of them are old and some a little newer but none of them are bad at all, I stayed in most of them throughout my training. I got somewhere around 140 hours of actual multi time and flew in a lot of good weather. The dispatch there is excellent, they use some of the best technology there is to inform there students about weather, maintenance and other things. I personally got a coast to coast trip and had a lot of fun doing it. I really don't know what else to say about ATP but I don't have anything at all negative. I'm sure everyone has there opinion about the program and I'm sure some instructors may not be as good as others but that is to be expected.
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