ATP Ride (part 91 GA)

[wheelsup]

Anyone had any experience with the ATP checkride with a DE? Looking for info/experience with taking a checkride in a baron part 61/91 (not 121 or 135 "upgrades").

Thanks
~wheelsup

 

[350DRIVER]

Take a look at the ATP PTS, you shouldn't see anything that would surprise you come checkride time if you prepare accordingly. I would also suggest buying the ATP oral guide published by ASA, pretty good prep for the oral portion of the ride.

good luck,

3 5 0

 

[GravityHater]

There is something here I don't understand...
I thought to get, or be, an ATP meant you were operating under either 135 or 121. What is "part 91 ATP"??
Is this just a wording thing or?
I suppose when you take a test in a private plane you are pt 91 is that what the line means??
Thanks.

 

[wheelsup]

Yeah, I realize that there is the PTS and oral guide, but I was just looking for some experiences on the ATP rides themselves.

Yeah, you can be an ATP, it's just a license (like private pilot/commercial pilot). I was looking for experiences from people who had done it not VIA an upgrade in a 121 or 135 environment.

thanks
~wheelsup

 

[Guitar Guy]

I have a few friends that have done it. Supposedly I've heard of someone doing their ATP ride in a C-182! But most of the non-121/135 guys that I've talked with have done it in piston twins. Apparently it's just another checkride, applying the ATP PTS to the ride. Experiences vary depending on the examiner, but that's true for any checkride.

For what it's worth, at my last airline, a few people thought having the ATP before doing their Upgrade checkride would make that ride easier, but it doesn't change anything, according to the director of training. Still there are some reasons for doing the ATP outside of a 121/135 environment, the chief one possibly being that having the ATP might qualify one to apply at certain operators.

 

[minitour]

I've talked to a couple of instructors here who instruct the ATP applicants both ASE and AME...This is all second (possibly third or fourth) hand information, so take it for what its worth...

The general consensus is: Know your sh*t.

Just about anything is fair game.

On the checkride, you'll do an instrument approach where the DE is supposed to fail everything. Reach for flaps...oops flap motor is broken..want the gear...oops so is the gear motor...using Nav2 uh oh...not getting the ID on Nav 2? oh no...now you lost an engine...get it feathered...oh crap, now your vacuums are gone...no boots (if we had them), no gyros...eek...cant use the windshield heat either (if we had it) cuz now you're using the compass for direction so you're getting ice all over the windshield...now you need to forward slip to so you can see the runway out da side window...but you're OEI...break out at minimums (take off the hood) and hey lets do a short field landing instead...get it set up and do it...nail those target airspeeds...oh no something is on the runway...SE missed...

This one guy (instructor) gets a kick out of doing this stuff to the applicants...and I guess the examiner here does too...

Make sure you're using the proper checklists for each situation...

Know the airplane inside out....know the systems like you designed them yourself...

Here, it's a pretty inclusive checkride...you really earn it...not sure how others are, but I'd say (from what I've heard from instructors and newly minted ATPs) he throws everything at you and expects it to be to PTS (obviously)...I've heard of some ATP folk getting in screaming matches with him during the ride "this would never happen!" stuff like that...I'd recommend against doing that...

Maybe check out a 141 program...3-5 days and you're done...if they have in house testing (like us) then its even easier...Here they're doing a ASE (172RG) then the ME (Duchess) add on...don't really know why...I guess it has something to do with the airplane itself...I dunno...not really paying attention when they talked about it...

When he does the SE ride it's about a 2 hour ride...the ME add on is about the same...the oral has gone anywhere from 20 minutes to 4 hours and its a group setting...

Remember...this is all second hand information from other students/instructors/applicants...so take that with a grain of salt...

Good luck!

-mini

 

[Daveman]

Good luck.

 

[avbug]

I did my ATP with a designated examiner. The ATP is nothing more than another instrument checkride. If you can pass the ride for your instrument rating, you can pass the ride for the ATP. The commercial is nothing more than a glorified private pilot checkride, and the ATP is nothing more than a commercial instrument ride...if you think about it, there's really little more to it than what it takes to be a private pilot.

Hate to wound the egos of all those who see the ATP as the "Doctorate" of the aviation world, but it's just another level of pilot certification, and it's the same old maneuvers, doing the same old things, nothing new under the sun. If you can pass any other checkride, you can certainly pass your ATP.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Anyone had any experience with the ATP checkride with a DE? Looking for info/experience with taking a checkride in a baron part 61/91 (not 121 or 135 "upgrades").

Quite honestly that is how I thought most people did it. Me and all of my peers did it that way back in the 80s. There shouldn't be anything real spectacular about it, just buy the PTS guide and read it, as that is what the DE is required to work from. As Avbug says, it is just an instrument ride with slightly tighter tolerances.

On the checkride, you'll do an instrument approach where the DE is supposed to fail everything. Reach for flaps...oops flap motor is broken..want the gear...oops so is the gear motor...using Nav2 uh oh...not getting the ID on Nav 2? oh no...now you lost an engine...get it feathered...oh crap, now your vacuums are gone...no boots (if we had them), no gyros...eek...cant use the windshield heat either (if we had it) cuz now you're using the compass for direction so you're getting ice all over the windshield...now you need to forward slip to so you can see the runway out da side window...but you're OEI...break out at minimums (take off the hood) and hey lets do a short field landing instead...get it set up and do it...nail those target airspeeds...oh no something is on the runway...SE missed...

Sorry Minitour but if a guy ever gave me more than one major failure and one minor failure I would be going straight to the FAA to have his certificate revoked. Guys like that need to be set straight .


TP

 

[minitour]

...Sorry Minitour but if a guy ever gave me more than one major failure and one minor failure I would be going straight to the FAA to have his certificate revoked. Guys like that need to be set straight .


TP

I hear ya...trust me...I did a checkride with his "assistant" and wanted to call the Feds...but it was no big deal. He gave me some issues and I just handled them to the best of my (limited) experience and ability.

The other thing is, the FAA approved the course and the checkride...plus it's a 141 ride so you can't really "pink"...if you know what I mean...if they want to bust me for not being able to set it down in a situation like that, fine by me...more ME PIC time...and it's a guaranteed rating so it just cost him more money...

Sometimes I think they (examiners/check airmen) do things just for their own personal kicks...like an ego trip...

Again...that previous post was based on second hand information. I'm not an ATP and I didn't sleep at a holiday in express last night...so take it for what its worth...

Could it have been people trying to freak me out? Sure...I'm kinda gullable too so it's possible.

Be Safe!

-mini

 

[Guitar Guy]

Minitour - definitely look over the PTS before your next checkride. There are limits to what the examiner can do and what failure(s) are allowed. What happens in a training environment can be a lot different than what happens on a checkride, ATP or otherwise.

 

[TrafficInSight]

Could it have been people trying to freak me out? Sure...I'm kinda gullable too so it's possible.

Be Safe!

-mini

Like the day before my checkride when a friend said "I heard he asks what the VOR ranges are."

I was like WTF? I don't remember learning any of that. So I ran home and studied all this stuff about navaids... and realized I'd been had

 

[minitour]

Minitour - definitely look over the PTS before your next checkride. There are limits to what the examiner can do and what failure(s) are allowed. What happens in a training environment can be a lot different than what happens on a checkride, ATP or otherwise.

...exactly why I was ready to call the feds. I thought I busted for something not on the checkride (in reality I didn't)...

Not sure about the ATP pts...which is why I put the disclaimer in my previous posts...

-mini

 

[Flyingmariner]

350Driver..................just been reading the ASA oral and I would assume that for the 91 one could skip over most of the 135/121 type questions? Like most of Hayes books there is always a ton of stuff that you couldn't possibly be asked.

 

[B GUMPS]

I dont know what DE Minitour was referring to but that seems a little much for an ATP ride and also all those failures at one time seem a bit much. Most DEs I have used and the one I did my ATP with were very straight foward . They normally dont fail more than two systems at once.An ATP ride is basically a Commercial Instrument ride with smaller tolerances so dont dread it. I couldnt sleep at all the night before mine and it turned out to be the easiest ride I had ever taken just one hour ground and .9 flight. Good luck'

 

[wmuflyguy]

The other thing is, the FAA approved the course and the checkride...plus it's a 141 ride so you can't really "pink"...

You can pink on a 141 checkride.

If the place giving the training has self-examining authority, then the checkride is given in house, that is when there is no "pink" slips. If you fail the school jsut "holds on" to the 8710 until the student passes.

Many 141 schools do not have self-examining authority, mine being one of them, and believe me if you fail you get a pink slip, fill out another 8710, and repay the DE.

 

[Daveman]

Yeah, I realize that there is the PTS and oral guide, but I was just looking for some experiences on the ATP rides themselves.

Yeah, you can be an ATP, it's just a license (like private pilot/commercial pilot). I was looking for experiences from people who had done it not VIA an upgrade in a 121 or 135 environment.
thanks
~wheelsup

I apoligize, I read this as ATP VIA a 121/135 upgrade. I will delete mt post.
And get my eyes checked.

 

[Cat Driver]

Judging by the level of flying skills that I see in some holders of the ATP their flight test couldn't have been very in depth.

The aviation culture seems to attract people that think flying is some kind of exotic science, when it is nothing more than operating a piece of machinery that travels through the air rather than on the water or over the land....

Cat Driver.

 

[indianboy7]

Took my ATP checkride this past Tuesday......The oral consisted of questions on every system in the airplane. . . then he asked me about descending below DH/MDA......that was it...the flight consisted of 2 ils's, one was normal followed by a landing, the other one was single engine with a single engine go around....then went on to do a full vor circling approach, and then a GPS approach followed by a missed.....then went out did some steep turns, unusual attitudes and holding....that was it......the examiner asked some pretty tough questions and was doing his best to get me distracted and flusterd during the flight.....My advice would be to practice in a frasca, or the airplane if you can afford it, beforehand if you have access to one, it will definitely help.

 

[minitour]

You can pink on a 141 checkride.

If the place giving the training has self-examining authority, then the checkride is given in house, that is when there is no "pink" slips. If you fail the school jsut "holds on" to the 8710 until the student passes.

Many 141 schools do not have self-examining authority, mine being one of them, and believe me if you fail you get a pink slip, fill out another 8710, and repay the DE.

details, details...

Fortunately I haven't had to thank the Lord yet for self examining authority at my school....emphasis on yet...I have a bad feeling about the CSEL ride...

-mini

 

[JAFI]

Just a review:

All ATP exams are conducted using Part 61. Parts 91/121/125/135 are not airman certification CFR's. Now, that said any TYPE ride, or Air Carrier PIC check is basically an ATP exam. A DE/Inspector can conduct the Air carrier check ride in addition to the ATP exam and if required a Type ride. A Stright ATP exam will not cover company procedures, or TYPE rating questions. Make sure the DE/Inspector knows BEFORE (as much in advance as possible) the check ride what qualifications/ratings/certificates you are going for. It can affect the requirements and planning of the test and what your certificate will look like when you are done.

IMHO the best way to do this is to get the 135/121 check with a TYPE rating and an ATP exam all at the same time. It is the same check ride. Your written test results are good as long as you go through the air carrier upgrade training.

Multiple failures are old school macho crap that is not found in reality and not part of the PTS. Any one who does this in the aircraft needs to read the NTSB reports of the many training/checking crashes that have occured. There have been too many accidents and near accidents to be screwing around in the aircraft. I think this type of training is good in a simulator but not during a check ride or in the aircraft.

Im climbing down from my soap box now.

JAFI

 

[wheelsup]

My advice would be to practice in a frasca, or the airplane if you can afford it, beforehand if you have access to one, it will definitely help.

Thanks indianboy, that's exactly what I was looking for. Our school lets us use their B58's free of charge for practice and for the checkride - so that won't be a problem. I was just looking some realistic things to practice and look over.

thanks!
~wheelsup

 

[bobbysamd]

ATP Ride

Anyone had any experience with the ATP checkride with a DE? Looking for info/experience with taking a checkride in a baron part 61/91 (not 121 or 135 "upgrades").

Don't you have an examiner or two with whom you could speak at MAPD? You are still there, aren't you?

In any event, an ATP practical is really just a souped-up instrument practical, and will be conducted the same as any practical by a DE. Do be prepared to answer questions about your B58. Know your charts, wx, regs, etc. I've heard of examiners who ask ATP applicants to plan instrument cross-countries. Do be proficient enough to fly to standards. Get plenty of practice beforehand. Other than that, an ATP ride isn't that bad.

I second the recommendation to be familiar with the ATP-Type Rating PTS. I also second and appreciate JAFI's comments about throwing multiple, ridiculous emergencies and abnormal situations at applicants during checkrides. It's great for training, but real examiners just don't do it during flights.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your ATP.

 

[wmuflyguy]

details, details...

Fortunately I haven't had to thank the Lord yet for self examining authority at my school....emphasis on yet...I have a bad feeling about the CSEL ride...

-mini

That is good, I too haven't failed one(knock on wood), Though one of my students tested the system for me. They are an interesting shade of pink, kinda a salmon colored. Goodluck on the CSEL, dont Psych your self out before hand.

 

[minitour]

That is good, I too haven't failed one(knock on wood), Though one of my students tested the system for me. They are an interesting shade of pink, kinda a salmon colored. Goodluck on the CSEL, dont Psych your self out before hand.

Thanks...its those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** steep spirals...haven't done one yet, but from what I hear its just a turn about a point with a descent...which sucks bc my "turn about a point" was more like "egg shaped parabola around a point that kept moving"...

-mini

 

[350DRIVER]

wheelsup,

If I am reading into bobbysamd's reply correctly and assuming that you are at the MAPD program then make sure you know the plane well and everything else prior to taking the ride. Not sure if you are a CFI there or not but those who come to Farmington for the "guaranteed" interview upon successful completion of the ATP ride must pass on the first attempt in order to interview in PHX. Those who bust and pass on attempt number two will not be given the interview and from what I understand and have heard from a friend who is former Mesa, current ATA 75, and who does crj sim training at MAPD on his days off is that the failure rate is quite high and most don't realize that you must pass it on the first time around to get to PHX. If you are a CFI there I would inquire about what "negative" result that this may or may not cause you when your 12 months of CFI service expires and you are granted the interview. If you are not at the MAPD program then disregard this entire post completely.

When John Greene was running this show you were quite the pilot if you passed on the first time around.


Good luck and have a nice holiday,

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa ATP "program"

[T]he [ATP practical]failure rate is quite high . . . . When John Greene was running this show you were quite the pilot if you passed on the first time around . . . .

That is sooooo true. I instructed a few of those students when I worked at MAPD in 1993 - when John Green was Chief Instructor. A few passed, but it seemed that more failed. Of course, this was an early Mesa pay-for-interview scheme that has survived - or, should I say, perpetuated itself.

One of the DEs was an ex-Mesa Chief Pilot and check airman, who later, ahem, crossed-over to Freedom last year when it started.

 

[indianboy7]

eh...forgot about the stalls....landing stall, departure stall and a clean stall...all turning....that plus the other stuff...