ATI and the IBT

[flyinboxes]

Hello ATI'ers. Heard some rumblings form a few of your crew members a while back that you guys may be going solo or ALPA. Still any rumblings going on?

 

[FastHap]

Hello ATI'ers. Heard some rumblings form a few of your crew members a while back that you guys may be going solo or ALPA. Still any rumblings going on?

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

Why is it any concern of your's as he was addressing ATI pilots.
The guy asked a question without disparaging spelling of company names. Obviously the same can not be said of you.

 

[rotor&wing]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

Paranoia running high I see........

 

[b707guy]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

 

[rotor&wing]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

Just curious as to the comment " and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs."

Care to elaborate on this?

 

[flyinboxes]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

The picture is MUCH bigger than that seen through the coke bottle lensed glasses of the 1224. Thanks for your concern though.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

I'm sure that ABX LIKES their PFE's, too. Unfortunately nobody can protect PFE's from the company's decisions. All of ABX's PFE's are on the street and they are IBT.

Astar SO's aren't paid as much as ABX's were (when they had them) but they ARE paid as much or more that most legacy pax carrier FO's. AND there is a shred of a chance of future growth at Astar unlike some other places.

The reality is that the plight of PFE's has little to do with whether a carrier is ALPA or IBT. The strength, direction, and destiny of ANY union comes from within the ranks of that carriers own pilot group - NOT from the national union council that represents them. Virtually any failure of our unions can be directly attributed to the local leadership of that union.

That being said, however, IF you ever need resources EITHER IBT or ALPA would be worlds better than going independent. Lawyers, strike funds, contract negotiating experience, communication systems, surveys, etc., etc. are all things that you'd be hard pressed to have in any really useful amount with an independent union. ALPA and IBT both have their plusses and minuses but either would be better than going it alone.

8

 

[countbat]

As a former Eastern guy I am a pro union. But lately I'm strongly starting to have the feeling that both, ALPA and Teamsters, have grown too big and they are not up to their original purpose anymore. Both are becoming more and more some kind of Mafia kind of organization.

 

[FastHap]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

That was uncalled for, and I apologize. I will now unplug my computer until I learn to play nice with others.

 

[Flyer8]

ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs...Over the years,ALPA has been famous for getting rid of PFE's as soon as they get on the property.

 

[rotor&wing]

ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs...Over the years,ALPA has been famous for getting rid of PFE's as soon as they get on the property.

OK, please cite the above instances where ALPA has done this.

 

[wickedride]

OK, please cite the above instances where ALPA has done this.

I'm pretty sure it happen at Eastern and Pan Am I bet there is an Old Head on this board that can clarify it. ALPA originally saw the PFE position as more jobs for stick jockey's.

As far as ABX Air's PFE's there were offered 50,000 dollars each for pilot training, not everyone took the offer and there are on the street, unfortunately. There are probally 20 give or take a few that made the transition. It was a very generous program negotiated by the Union and the Company

Happy Flying
WickedRide

 

[Flyer8]

The majors were the first to do as mentioned above. Another favorite was to take the PFE job,give it the title of second officer and cut the pay. Emory adopted this tactic.

 

[rotor&wing]

The majors were the first to do as mentioned above.

Not trying to flame here, but can someone show facts as to this, not "I heard" and "I think this happened"?

 

[wickedride]

Try this book in the link;
http://www.amazon.com/Flying-line-century-Pilots-Association/dp/0960970800

i usually try to preface statements with I think because I'm not an/the authority. ( I get crap wrong)
The Book is called " Flying The Line"
I have it here but can't find it.
Good luck

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

As told to me by a PFE in the early 90s.

Eastern:mid 1960s. Under ALPA the pilots took PFE positions for conversion into SO employment. ALPA obviously wasn't interested in PFE representation - the PFEs went on strike and technically speaking were still out at the company's demise.

Zero chance of recall, the job description had changed to pull the rug out from under their feet.

 

[rotor&wing]

As told to me by a PFE in the early 90s.

Eastern:mid 1960s. Under ALPA the pilots took PFE positions for conversion into SO employment. ALPA obviously wasn't interested in PFE representation - the PFEs went on strike and technically speaking were still out at the company's demise.

Zero chance of recall, the job description had changed to pull the rug out from under their feet.

Well the pilots or ALPA didn't own the airline nor did they run it. It would seem to me IF such a decision was made to do it that way it would have come from management, not the pilots or ALPA.

 

[penguin22]

Over the years quite a few ABX PFE's took the sweatheart deal negotiated for them by the IBT to transition to the pilots seat. A few of those are now Captains, including 767 Captains.

To this day this still pisses off the pilots who are junior to the (former) PFEs

Only the PFEs who didn't bother with the upgrade program, or those that tried but didn't make it, are now on the street.

 

[b707guy]

Didn't mean to create such a furor over that tongue-in-cheek comment on what I thought was a commonly-known situation (and I guess a bit of an unprovoked jab in the ribs to ALPA). As Flyer8 mentioned, the majors were the first to phase out the PFEs in favor of SOs, mostly under ALPA in what I admit is recollection, not printed fact. The selling point was two-fold, one being ex-military pilots getting pilot buddies a job (PFEs have traditionally been military enlisted, and so "couldn't" be friends with the pilots, God forbid, so why should the pilots help them get jobs...) and two, to pay them less. The trade-off was no A&P on board to help fix things or sign things off if/when needed. Reliability improvements and reduced mx effort as fleets modernized was a factor in that. The last big instance that comes to mind is (was...) Emery. Granted, ABX went with SOs under IBT, although I understand that they allowed some PFEs to trickle back in during some of the hiring that took place after SOs were instated. Our own sister company, Cappy, is ALPA, and I haven't heard of any rumors or intent to start hiring SOs there.

You are certainly right R&W that we don't have much say in how our respective companies choose to hire, but history has shown that ALPA isn't generally PFE-friendly. Our company (among many others I'm sure) is better served (IMHO) by having PFEs on our list than SOs, and I'd like to see it stay that way, at least as long as we have 3-seaters on the ramp. Someday, 767s will rule at ATI and then it won't really matter, but for now, we have a great fully funded upgrade program for PFEs to move to the right seat, pilot seniority is protected (an upgrading PFE moves to the bottom of the FO list) to keep the rest of us happy, and with only a few exceptions, it's worked out quite well.