ATI and the IBT

[flyinboxes]

Hello ATI'ers. Heard some rumblings form a few of your crew members a while back that you guys may be going solo or ALPA. Still any rumblings going on?

 

[FastHap]

Hello ATI'ers. Heard some rumblings form a few of your crew members a while back that you guys may be going solo or ALPA. Still any rumblings going on?

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

Why is it any concern of your's as he was addressing ATI pilots.
The guy asked a question without disparaging spelling of company names. Obviously the same can not be said of you.

 

[rotor&wing]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

Paranoia running high I see........

 

[b707guy]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

 

[rotor&wing]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

Just curious as to the comment " and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs."

Care to elaborate on this?

 

[flyinboxes]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

The picture is MUCH bigger than that seen through the coke bottle lensed glasses of the 1224. Thanks for your concern though.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Either would be new to me. We discussed going in-house a number of years ago and decided against it, and ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs. We're sticking with the devil we know for the time being, which is IBT 747.

I'm sure that ABX LIKES their PFE's, too. Unfortunately nobody can protect PFE's from the company's decisions. All of ABX's PFE's are on the street and they are IBT.

Astar SO's aren't paid as much as ABX's were (when they had them) but they ARE paid as much or more that most legacy pax carrier FO's. AND there is a shred of a chance of future growth at Astar unlike some other places.

The reality is that the plight of PFE's has little to do with whether a carrier is ALPA or IBT. The strength, direction, and destiny of ANY union comes from within the ranks of that carriers own pilot group - NOT from the national union council that represents them. Virtually any failure of our unions can be directly attributed to the local leadership of that union.

That being said, however, IF you ever need resources EITHER IBT or ALPA would be worlds better than going independent. Lawyers, strike funds, contract negotiating experience, communication systems, surveys, etc., etc. are all things that you'd be hard pressed to have in any really useful amount with an independent union. ALPA and IBT both have their plusses and minuses but either would be better than going it alone.

8

 

[countbat]

As a former Eastern guy I am a pro union. But lately I'm strongly starting to have the feeling that both, ALPA and Teamsters, have grown too big and they are not up to their original purpose anymore. Both are becoming more and more some kind of Mafia kind of organization.

 

[FastHap]

And why is that any concern of Asstar??

That was uncalled for, and I apologize. I will now unplug my computer until I learn to play nice with others.

 

[Flyer8]

ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs...Over the years,ALPA has been famous for getting rid of PFE's as soon as they get on the property.

 

[rotor&wing]

ALPA has never really been on our minds as we LIKE our PFEs...Over the years,ALPA has been famous for getting rid of PFE's as soon as they get on the property.

OK, please cite the above instances where ALPA has done this.

 

[wickedride]

OK, please cite the above instances where ALPA has done this.

I'm pretty sure it happen at Eastern and Pan Am I bet there is an Old Head on this board that can clarify it. ALPA originally saw the PFE position as more jobs for stick jockey's.

As far as ABX Air's PFE's there were offered 50,000 dollars each for pilot training, not everyone took the offer and there are on the street, unfortunately. There are probally 20 give or take a few that made the transition. It was a very generous program negotiated by the Union and the Company

Happy Flying
WickedRide

 

[Flyer8]

The majors were the first to do as mentioned above. Another favorite was to take the PFE job,give it the title of second officer and cut the pay. Emory adopted this tactic.

 

[rotor&wing]

The majors were the first to do as mentioned above.

Not trying to flame here, but can someone show facts as to this, not "I heard" and "I think this happened"?

 

[wickedride]

Try this book in the link;
http://www.amazon.com/Flying-line-century-Pilots-Association/dp/0960970800

i usually try to preface statements with I think because I'm not an/the authority. ( I get crap wrong)
The Book is called " Flying The Line"
I have it here but can't find it.
Good luck

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

As told to me by a PFE in the early 90s.

Eastern:mid 1960s. Under ALPA the pilots took PFE positions for conversion into SO employment. ALPA obviously wasn't interested in PFE representation - the PFEs went on strike and technically speaking were still out at the company's demise.

Zero chance of recall, the job description had changed to pull the rug out from under their feet.

 

[rotor&wing]

As told to me by a PFE in the early 90s.

Eastern:mid 1960s. Under ALPA the pilots took PFE positions for conversion into SO employment. ALPA obviously wasn't interested in PFE representation - the PFEs went on strike and technically speaking were still out at the company's demise.

Zero chance of recall, the job description had changed to pull the rug out from under their feet.

Well the pilots or ALPA didn't own the airline nor did they run it. It would seem to me IF such a decision was made to do it that way it would have come from management, not the pilots or ALPA.

 

[penguin22]

Over the years quite a few ABX PFE's took the sweatheart deal negotiated for them by the IBT to transition to the pilots seat. A few of those are now Captains, including 767 Captains.

To this day this still pisses off the pilots who are junior to the (former) PFEs

Only the PFEs who didn't bother with the upgrade program, or those that tried but didn't make it, are now on the street.

 

[b707guy]

Didn't mean to create such a furor over that tongue-in-cheek comment on what I thought was a commonly-known situation (and I guess a bit of an unprovoked jab in the ribs to ALPA). As Flyer8 mentioned, the majors were the first to phase out the PFEs in favor of SOs, mostly under ALPA in what I admit is recollection, not printed fact. The selling point was two-fold, one being ex-military pilots getting pilot buddies a job (PFEs have traditionally been military enlisted, and so "couldn't" be friends with the pilots, God forbid, so why should the pilots help them get jobs...) and two, to pay them less. The trade-off was no A&P on board to help fix things or sign things off if/when needed. Reliability improvements and reduced mx effort as fleets modernized was a factor in that. The last big instance that comes to mind is (was...) Emery. Granted, ABX went with SOs under IBT, although I understand that they allowed some PFEs to trickle back in during some of the hiring that took place after SOs were instated. Our own sister company, Cappy, is ALPA, and I haven't heard of any rumors or intent to start hiring SOs there.

You are certainly right R&W that we don't have much say in how our respective companies choose to hire, but history has shown that ALPA isn't generally PFE-friendly. Our company (among many others I'm sure) is better served (IMHO) by having PFEs on our list than SOs, and I'd like to see it stay that way, at least as long as we have 3-seaters on the ramp. Someday, 767s will rule at ATI and then it won't really matter, but for now, we have a great fully funded upgrade program for PFEs to move to the right seat, pilot seniority is protected (an upgrading PFE moves to the bottom of the FO list) to keep the rest of us happy, and with only a few exceptions, it's worked out quite well.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

....... we have a great fully funded upgrade program for PFEs to move to the right seat, pilot seniority is protected (an upgrading PFE moves to the bottom of the FO list) to keep the rest of us happy, and with only a few exceptions, it's worked out quite well.

At ABX the upgrading PFEs retained their seniority and carried it into the front seats, hence the friction mentioned by penguin22 which just about became a civil war.

 

[b707guy]

At ABX the upgrading PFEs retained their seniority and carried it into the front seats,

And I understand the sentiment, from both sides. Emery was the same way, if I remember correctly. We maintain separate lists for pilots and PFEs. Most of ours who entered the program are now comfortably up the FO list, especially with our recent hiring. I guess part of the argument was that the ones who chose to take the cash for the upgrade "paid" for it by giving up DOH-based seniority on the FO list. Everything else remains based on original DOH, including pay rate, earned vacation days, vesting of 401k, etc, as if they had been on the pilot list all along. The highest one on our FO list is bidding #16, and it won't be long before he can bid left seat, assuming he meets all of the requirements. Most of the rest straddle the halfway mark.

 

[erichartmann]

At ABX the upgrading PFEs retained their seniority and carried it into the front seats, hence the friction mentioned by penguin22 which just about became a civil war.

No, they did not. You are incorrect. They were given seniority numbers based on the date they were incorporated into the local (in effect "hired). That date is 11/10/94. The next pilot was hired on 1/3/95. No pilot who was on the property at the date the PFE's became part of the local (and in effect red circle rate S/O's) lost any seniority to a PFE. The PFE's were, in effect, stapled to the bottom of the existing seniority list. The most junior PFE was hired on 9/2/94. The seniority number they were given based on that 11/10/94 date governs what bid they can hold. Their original DOH governed the order in which they were placed on the list among themselves below every pilot then on the list. Their orginal DOH also governs the pay rate they get for that bid as well as retirement.

A bit of history. At ABX the PFE's were orginally hired as non-union. The IBT contract at the time did not contemplate PFE's. Management did that to put a non-union employee in our cockpits. They also paid the PFE's very well, a PFE with a few years seniority made more than an F/O. This was done deliberately. Eventually, the PFE's realized they were pawns and would be flushed when (not if) management deceided they were no longer worth the cost. They organized. Eventually management agreed to recognize them and allow them to be incorporated into the existing local 1224 without actually holding an election. In exchange management got the right to hire S/O's. The PFE's had two options regarding seniority at the time they were incorporated into the local. They could have retained their orginal hire dates for seniorty purposes, and have no particular rights to the F/E-S/O seat, or they could be all be given a seniority date based on the date of incorporation into local 1224 and retain "grandfather" rights to the F/E-S/O seat. This meant that any retread would be placed on the seat seniorty bid lower than any existing PFE. The PFE's did retain a DOH based on actual DOH for pay and retirement purposes. Their ability to upgrade was predicated on the date they were incorporated into local 1224. This was 1994. No PFE was given seniorty for bidding purposes higher than any pilot then on the property. ALL the pilots who were/are junior to the former PFE's were hired AFTER the PFE's were brought into the local (in effect "hired"). Some of the PFE's gave up 8 yrs of "seniority" (for bidding purposes) to allow those in their peer group whom they knew had no hope or desire to attain a window seat to retain their seniorty and bidding rights in the F/E-S/O seat.

The upgrade program for the PFE's was financed by the PFE's themselves. While the rest of the members of local 1224 (read the pilots) got pay raises in the 1996 contact, the equivilent percentage that would have gone to the PFE's as pay raises was used to create a fund the PFE's themselves could use for assistance in getting the necessary licences.

 

[b707guy]

Interesting history, Eric, thanks. I knew a few PFEs that retired from the USAF right up the street at Wright-Patt who were hired by ABX in that timeframe, and I knew the specifics were complicated but had no idea!

a PFE with a few years seniority made more than an F/O.

PFEs were almost always paid more than FOs with similar longevity, to recognize the A&P responsibilities. At least it was true from my experience with Southern, Emery, and pre-CBA days here at ATI, as well as at other companies as I've heard. Now, our PFEs are paid more only during their first two years of employment, and the same as FOs afterwards. Don't know how that'll work when our next CBA is ratified. Part of that pay parity was for the upgrade program, so I guess ours paid for that opportunity as well.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

No, they did not. You are incorrect. They were given seniority numbers based on the date they were incorporated into the local (in effect "hired). ......

Well eric, you would say that wouldn't you - being one of the more rabid supporters/architects of the 1224 PFE affirmative action program.

I am correct in stating that ABX PFEs upgrading to the RHS took their seniority with them. You have a somewhat slippery definition of the various job descriptions where PFE, pilot and Crew member become different things at different times.


They were hired as PFEs not pilots: a PFE isn't a pilot: moving seats should result in going to the bottom of the pilot list.

A pilot hitting 60 electing to work the panel went to the bottom of the PFE list on SO pay. One big happy family on one seniority list as you claim? Very obviously not.

The whole scam would never have flown had JH been on the property at its implementation. He did, much later, try to reverse its more onerous inequities but the statute of limitations had expired. As you well know.

Not the finest hour for 1224 when an affirmative action policy running counter to the best interests and will of the majority is plotted behind closed doors and imposed without vote. Most of us knew something was seriously wrong but lacked the legal expertise to stop it.

It's now all water under the bridge eric, but don't rewrite history to paper over controversial and possibly illegal union maneuvering. Had JH appeared on the scene sooner rather than later the program would have been dismantled and rewritten in a more equitable form.

 

[penguin22]

How many age 60 guys did we have go back to the panel? Are you saying they got screwed because they only got SO pay?
And who's JH?

Not the finest hour for 1224 when an affirmative action policy running counter to the best interests and will of the majority is plotted behind closed doors

And how's that possible, exactly? Your "majority" weren't even hired yet when the deal got made.

 

[erichartmann]

Well eric, you would say that wouldn't you - being one of the more rabid supporters/architects of the 1224 PFE affirmative action program.

I am correct in stating that ABX PFEs upgrading to the RHS took their seniority with them. You have a somewhat slippery definition of the various job descriptions where PFE, pilot and Crew member become different things at different times.


They were hired as PFEs not pilots: a PFE isn't a pilot: moving seats should result in going to the bottom of the pilot list.

A pilot hitting 60 electing to work the panel went to the bottom of the PFE list on SO pay. One big happy family on one seniority list as you claim? Very obviously not.

The whole scam would never have flown had JH been on the property at its implementation. He did, much later, try to reverse its more onerous inequities but the statute of limitations had expired. As you well know.

Not the finest hour for 1224 when an affirmative action policy running counter to the best interests and will of the majority is plotted behind closed doors and imposed without vote. Most of us knew something was seriously wrong but lacked the legal expertise to stop it.

It's now all water under the bridge eric, but don't rewrite history to paper over controversial and possibly illegal union maneuvering. Had JH appeared on the scene sooner rather than later the program would have been dismantled and rewritten in a more equitable form.

I did not "rewrite history" as you put it. I reported the facts as they occured.

The PFE's were incorporated into the Union on 11/10/94. Their seniority as used for the purpose of bidding is based on that date. They were, at that point in time, the most junior people on the list.

The Union's charter allowed the Union to represent crewmembers, not just pilots. Our contract, at that time, addressed crewmembers, not just pilots. There was nothing illegal about what was done in incorporating the PFE's into the Union.

What you, and your ilk wanted to do was similar to what ALPA did to F/E's in the '60s. It is interesting to note that the folks who founded APLA were the pilots at AA. Note that they are no longer part of ALPA. This is one of if not the major reasons why.

Your me first what are you doing for me right now attitude disgusts me.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm sure that ABX LIKES their PFE's, too. Unfortunately nobody can protect PFE's from the company's decisions. All of ABX's PFE's are on the street and they are IBT.

Astar SO's aren't paid as much as ABX's were (when they had them) but they ARE paid as much or more that most legacy pax carrier FO's. AND there is a shred of a chance of future growth at Astar unlike some other places.

The reality is that the plight of PFE's has little to do with whether a carrier is ALPA or IBT. The strength, direction, and destiny of ANY union comes from within the ranks of that carriers own pilot group - NOT from the national union council that represents them. Virtually any failure of our unions can be directly attributed to the local leadership of that union.

That being said, however, IF you ever need resources EITHER IBT or ALPA would be worlds better than going independent. Lawyers, strike funds, contract negotiating experience, communication systems, surveys, etc., etc. are all things that you'd be hard pressed to have in any really useful amount with an independent union. ALPA and IBT both have their plusses and minuses but either would be better than going it alone.

8

Which is what the USAir East guys are going to find out in short order.


PHXFLYR