ATCers help me understand

[chperplt]

Why is LGA so quick to pull the plug and ground stop everything for hours and hours???

Sure it's windy today, but they are running on a two runway configuration and the place isn't very busy. They seem to always ground stop the heck out of the place and make it a ghost town.

WHY??? What am I not seeing or understanding?

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Although I don't have any actual ATCing experience, from what I have learned about LGA, EWR, and JFK is that they are all dependant on each other. So if one airport switches runways it affects the ops at the other two. LGA is the most sensitive out of the three since it is right in the middle. It is only about 5 miles to the east of EWR and about 5 to the west of JFK. Also it is an outdated airport that is exceeding the capacity of traffic it was designed for. That is probably why things are so difficult there.

 

[ATCER]

That's a good question about LGA ...

I'm guessing that you (chperpit) flew (or tried to) fly into there today. LGA has 2 runways, 2 short runways (7000') that cross at a 90 degree angle, so ops there are slow, they try and use LAHSO but most pilots decline it there.

Now, at 4 PM eastern time LGA is landing and departing on 31, with winds 270/28 gusting to 34. And, there is LLWS reported. At this time on any given weekday they need to be using 2 runways to handle their traffic, and then they are still busy.

It's a real domino effect. What will happen is the tower (LGA) will call New York Tracon (N90) Traffic Management (TMU) and tell them they are going to 1 runway, and they need all inbounds 5 miles in trail (MIT). N90 turns around and calls New York Center (ZNY) and tells them all LGA inbounds need 20 MIT to the tracon. ZNY which airspace is small and saturated has almost no room to hold, they turn around and tell all surrounding centers that all LGA inbounds need 30 MIT, of course those centers will turn around and want ALL traffic to them at 30-40 MIT. This is not to mention that if LGA is windy you can bet the whole northeast is, from BOS to IAD and there are flow restrictions in for all airports.

What flybuddy mentioned is correct, with LGA using the LOC 31 approach, that causes a whole problem of sequencing the inbounds because they run right next to JFK's airspace.

I gave you a simple version of what happens, sitting at LGA things seem quiet but the northeast is a mess.

This is not mentioning if the wind shifts, and all or some airports need to switch runways, A/C all go into a hold, the center and tracon stop taking handoffs, airports as far south as ATL and west of ORD could see groundstops within minutes of a massive runway change.

I hope the above explains things a bit, if not I'll try and address more specifics.

 

[chperplt]

Yes, that all makes sense... I understand what you're saying.

BUT

I flew into LGA this morning (scheduled 121) and the wind was the same as it was this afternoon, with LLWS. They were landing on 22 and departing on 31. Just the same as they were this afternoon when they ground stopped the world for 4 hours.

It seems as if the LGA controllers want to take a break, watch some TV, or have a BBQ, so they issue a ground stop. I talked with someone who was broke in LGA during the ground stop, and he said the place was a ghost town, but still landing 22 and departing 31.

 

[ATCER]

The tower at LGA can't ground stop traffic on their own. I mean they can in a way, but not like you think. No tower can. They just specify how they want traffic fed to them. They can say they are not taking any inbounds but they would have to have a real legit reason. ANY ground stop in the country and the airlines are screaming on the phones.

I am surprised they were in a 4 hour ground stop with 2 runways, especially if they were landing 22, the approach for 22 puts them east of the metro area and is the preffered landing runway. I'm curious with the bad weather in NY last night in combination with the bad winds today if the airlines cancelled some of their flights out of LGA ... ??? That might explain it being a ghost town, as for the stop it had something to do with flow control.

The ground stop came from higher up, the center or maybe even the command center in Washington. Maybe some pilots on here who fly into LGA can add to this but I have heard that at LGA they have crosswond limitaitons for departing and landing, different from other airports ??? I'm not sure... I have heard it both ways.

Right now (5:20 Eastern) LGA and EWR are still under a ground delay program, meaning flights departing for these airports could be delayed.

The fact remins that EWR and LGA are trouble spots for congestion and traffic problems, TMU is quick on the trigger to flow restrict those airports. It's like putting band aid on a gun shot, doesn't really solve anything. Currently there is a huge airspace redesign program underway, has been for some time. NY Tracon and NY Center are to be combined in one building/facility nicknamed Crystal Palace right now. Huge airspace changes including acquiring airspace from Boston and Washington, a complete overhaul of traffic flows in and out of the northeast, etc. Problem is, it is VERY POLITICAL... FAA, NATCA, Airlines, politicians, all have something to say. Of course they haven't asked the controllers for real input. I think the projection date for it is 2008 or 2010. You thought that 4 hours was long...

 

[chperplt]

I don't think LGA has a crosswind limitation. Flying in there after the last hurricane blew threw I with they had!!


Thanks for your input!!

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Yes, that all makes sense... I understand what you're saying.

BUT

I flew into LGA this morning (scheduled 121) and the wind was the same as it was this afternoon, with LLWS. They were landing on 22 and departing on 31. Just the same as they were this afternoon when they ground stopped the world for 4 hours.

It seems as if the LGA controllers want to take a break, watch some TV, or have a BBQ, so they issue a ground stop. I talked with someone who was broke in LGA during the ground stop, and he said the place was a ghost town, but still landing 22 and departing 31.

I really don't know much about what goes on in the towers as far as attitude toward work is concerned and I am not trying to defend ATCers just because I am on my way (or so I think) to becoming one. But I would argue that ATCers, on average, are hard working people that really try to do a great job no matter what the conditions. Sure I would imagine, like any job, there are some lazy ones that can't wait for a break and hate their job. But for the most part they look at their job as rewarding and usually put 110% into it, similar to most professional pilots. I don't think they go to work with the attitude "let's set up a ground stop and have a BBQ today." In fact the delays are usually more work for the controllers. I am sure they don't like them anymore than you. And, correct me if I am wrong ATCer, but it is the TMU that gives the call on the ground stop, not LGA tower. And the TMU folks (also correct me if I am wrong) aren't controllers but rather monitor flow control along with the ATCSCC in Washington. So even though it seems easy to project the blame at the LGA controllers I am almost certain they don't deserve it. I think it is more just the way things are and the realities of modern-day airspace and NAS procedures that cause those kinds of inconveniences.

 

[ATCER]

A couple of things... I wasn't clear about the x-wind thing... I think it is airline specific. I have a friend that works at LGA, and I could swear that he told me that some airlines have restrictions for x-wind landings there... I don't know the specifics.

As for the BBQ... in every job you find some lazy people and we have our share, they are the exception to the rule, but they are there. I always try and shortcut A/C and comply with any pilot request. Sadly, some don't. I understand chperplt's frustration, flight delays are VERY frustrating, every person on this board knows that. I have been stuck more then once in the back and in the jumpseat ... all the times cursing ! LOL ...

The FAA has become more proactive with flow control, sometimes it works out well, other times it does not, and most times it make no sense. The big thing they are trying to prevent is the type of incident where traffic is just flowing in from every direction and all of the sudden someone says "I'm not taking anymore A/C" ... the sytem just goes down the crapper... I have seen nights where it took 12 hours to recover from something like that.

BTW ... flybuddy, your info on TMU and the tower were on the $$$ ...

 

[350DRIVER]

TEB was fun today... - Too bad we do it too frequently. Or maybee not much longer for I


3 5 0

 

[ATCER]

How was TEB today ??? (with the wind) ... I've seen plenty of days where TEB had a longer IFR dep list then EWR !!!

TEB will get groundstopped very often with EWR... they are both worked by the EWR sector at NY Tracon... TMU shuts em' all down.

 

[Vector4fun]

chperplt,

I can't speak to LGA as I've never even been to NY. But as the others have said, the ground stop doesn't originate from LGA it's self, but most likely from NY Center and Central Flow, and likely has more to do with ops at the other two NY airports than the intersection of LGA's two runways. LGA would and could not issue a "ground stop" unless they had a situation on the field precluding a safe landing. And then they'd have to coordinate it with Central Flow because only they have the means to communicate that to other facilities properly.

This stuff is all incredably frustrating to us in ATC at times, just as it is to the pilots and PAX, because we get changing/conflicting messages from Flow and Center all the time. For example, we'll get at two hour GS to DFW or IAH for example, the out of the blue, someone will call and ask if we can get COA123 airborne in seven minutes! Well, maybe we can, if they've got the aircraft boarded and ready to push. But perhaps they let a few folks off the plane, the ground crew is pushing/servicing another aircraft at the moment, Ops is working on a revised release, etc. etc. Then we'll get three IAH departures out, and another two or three taxiing, and they issue another GS, which means we have to get those aircraft back out of line and out of the way again.

Then the airline's reps at Central Flow are saying they want certain of their diverted aircraft airborne first, and that message gets passed down the chain of command to us. But it does little good because the airline reps and Central Flow have no idea who's been serviced and fueled, who's got a release, or even who's been blocked in a parking space at the "penalty box" by the other twenty or so diverts.

Then when the delays exceed about two hours, the airlines start canceling certain flights, but that info doesn't get passed all the way up and down the line, so we're holding flight plans and scheduling delays based on false info, which is why, late in the evening, a proposed two hour delay may turn out to be only 30 minutes.

I've just described a portion of the mess it causes at another airport. I couldn't begin to describe what kind of mess this stuff causes the Center, or at Central Flow. The problem is, there's not enough real-time information up/down the chain of command, and it would be a MAJOR undertaking involving all the airlines and FAA to install the equipment and procedures to allow better real-time info. Not gonna happen during my career, but maybe someday.....

 

[chperplt]

Thanks for a lot of good info!!

 

[350DRIVER]

How was TEB today ??? (with the wind) ... I've seen plenty of days where TEB had a longer IFR dep list then EWR !!!

It was not as bad as usual but still was a long delay once we got to the holding area. I think we were number 17 or so. Thought for sure we were going to have to get a start up time but some reason we got lucky I guess...


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[dispatchguy]

Off-Topic (SORTA)

Every night the ATCSCC issues an advisory of prominent VORs and other ATC systems which will be down the next day, and a lot of times some ARTCC's host computer will be down with the remark: OPS DARC

WTH does DARC mean?

 

[ATCER]

This is going to be the basic version because I do not want to post a lot of info about the system on a public board.

FAA enroute facilites (ARTCC'S) use a radar system called DSR. Short for ~> Display System Replacement.

It's a fairly new system (by Gov't standards), it came online around the mid 90's.

HOST/NAS (National Airspace System) is the primary software system that controls the radar processing, flight plans etc. The FAA has various back-up systems, one of which is DARC (Direct Access Radar Channel).

Sometimes during the mids the FAA will take either parts or all of the HOST/NAS down for maintenance. In those situations DARC takes over, it is also always on standby, if there is a crash of the host, or glitch, or whatever, DARC kicks in seamlessly. Depending on what configuration of HOST/DARC is running, some features of HOST/NAS may not be available.

The FAA puts out a notice when they will be using DARC to alert certain users of the system that all services may not be available.

Hey 350... #17 ... slow day there ... huh ?