ATC tried to kill me!!!!

[Jmmccutc]

man i expected to see 80for80 as the poster of this thread...haha

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Re: ATC tried to kill me!!!!

Anyway, no big deal, the controller made a mistake and it was caught. My point wasn't to scream about incompetent ATC, rather to get some discussion going and maybe to offer a little reminder that ATC can screw up too. What was it that Reagan said? "trust, but verify"

Absolutely. If you're uncomfortable with the clearance, or if you suspect something is awry, query the controller. Nothing lost there, ever.

In this case, you knew something was up (figuratively, and literally). I wouldn't hesitate to humbly ask about the clearance before I began screaming down to the cleared altitude. Like I said before, somebody will learn something as a result of asking the question.

In the unlikely event he gets an attitude about it, file a NASA report, too. Might as well let other people learn from the situation, too. We all have to be heads up, all the time.

 

[mckpickle]

It was my understanding that in IFR A controler is responsible for separation between IFR aircraft. Not between IFR and VFR or for terrain at all. Just so happens that they do provide the "service".

Think about if you were in a non radar envoronment.

 

[Clownpilot]

What?????

The controller did cover himself by saying at "your discretion." It's not uncommon for me to receive clearances to descend below class B airspace in a turbine powered airplane. The controllers can get away with this by saying at "your discretion." It then puts the responsiblity on your shoulders.

>>>


Thats absolutely ludicrous.

Under an IFR flight plan a clearance to descend at pilots discretion in no way relieves ATC of the responsibility to provide terrain clearance. All pilots discretion means is that you may begin descending whenever you like and you may level off at any intermediate altitude if you wish as long as you don't try climbing back up. It also means you have no minimum time to reach your new altitude clearance.

And what does descending below class B airspace have to do with anything?? A controller may issue you an IFR clearance to the limit of his airspace control or if he has already coordinated the altitude with the next controller who will assume responsibility for you once you switch.

The comments about minimum vectoring altitudes are absolutely correct. You may receive a clearance below MSA but you will never receive a clearance below MVA unless the controller makes a blatant mistake.
The problem is that pilots don't have MVA's printed on any of their charts so it gets dicey that way.

Pilots discretion has absolutely nothing to do with terrain clearance. It merely has to do with execution time. I have often been given PD to an altitude, stayed at the current altitude, and eventually given a 'descend now to' call. Everyone has.

Nobody with 7000 hours would ever be ignorant of this fact. You been drinking??????

 

[rettofly]

I'm skeptical that this somehow releases the controller from his obligations. In the situation you mention, where it is legal to clear *an* airplane below the floor, but it is illegal for you to operate *your* specific airplane that low, yeah, the controller may be in the clear if he said "pilot's discretion" In my example where it isn't legal to clear *any* airplane to that altitude on that route segment, I don't think that "pilot's discretion" would be much of a defense for the controller.

I always thought "Pilot's Discretion" means you can start down whenever you're ready. The FL or altitude is ASSIGNED and not subject to PD.

 

[typhoonpilot]

This all reminds me of the TWA 727 that went down while trying to get on the approach to DCA or IAD ( I don't remember). I do not recall the exact specifics pertaining to the clearance that was recieved but that accident was what coined the term "cleared for the approach".. I think the only guy on the flight deck that understood what was happening was the FE. Amazing how something can like that can happen if something is not understood

Actually, this was TWA flight 514 that crashed 25 miles northwest of Dulles. The phrase that came out of it was, " maintain xxxx feet until established, cleared for the approach ". They descended before they were established, oops

Typhoonpilot

 

[mckpickle]

We need to get some controlers on here because I thought the TERPS stated they are only responsible for trafic seperation.

No one has awnsered this. What are a controlers responsibilities in non radar?

 

[ATCER]

It's hard for me to give an exact answer without knowing all the details but we (controllers) can not issue an IFR aircraft an IFR clearance to descend below MEA.

The controller semi-protected himself with the "pilot discretion" clearance but that would not stand up in an accident... he would be named as part of the accident. There have been incidents where this has happened and the controller took part of the blame... though I will say the flight crew gets hit the worst.

On the enroute screens we get a MSAW (Minimum Safe Altitude Warning) that flashes if someone descends below a published MEA or MVA. That together with the GPWS on the A/C are nice back-ups to help with the human error factor.

If ATC tells you something you're not sure off or don't understand, ask them about it. They should not have an attitude either... if they do, do not get into a pissing match on the radio, note what facility it was and make a phone call (or have company do it) to speak with someone. I have issued my share of things that were confusing or not correct and I was glad the fight crew said something.

I have an old friend in QA (quality assurance) that I'm gonna forward this question and see what he thinks.

 

[SuperFLUF]

It shouldn't have happened but, just consider it to be practice for when (if) you fly south of the border.

The latin controllers routinely will clear you to altitudes that are below the terrain level. The PILOT is responsible to descend to the cleared altitude only when it is safe to do so. For example, Mexico City center routinely clears us to 6000ft when descending into Acapulco with 14,000ft mountains between us and the airport. The controller just assumes that we are not idiots and will follow the MEA/arrival procedure altitudes.

 

[LJDRVR]

SuperFLUF brings up a very good point that probably bears a little "pile-on".

If you are flying ANYWHERE south of the border, (RADAR or not) remember this: the controllers job is to kill you. Make sure you are 100% cognizant of terrain clearance at all times. If the controller wishes to give you vectors towards an approach procedure with altitude assignments that don't allow you to remain at or above a published route segment MEA or MSA, request the whole procedure. I had a Guatemalean controller give us a descent clearance that would have put us at exactly the same altitude of a mountain range we were about to cross. When we called him on it he quickly and apollogetically issued us a much higher ammended altitude.

DISCLAIMER: I'm posting this for those who have yet to do any international flying, those of you already aware please resist the temptation to flame, I know I'm preaching to the choir.