ATC Question

[LJDRVR]

I was having a conversation with a Check Airman the other day when an interesting subject came up. You're flying along in a radar environment when the controller issues you say, a crossing restriction. (Cross 40 NM southeast of podunk at and maintain one five thousand.) you acknowledge and continue. Once reaching the TOD, you start down and advise the contoller that you are vacating FL240 for 15,000.

My question is this: Our understanding is this is a courtesey call in a radar environment, and is suggested in the AIM. Now I don't have a copy of the regs or AIM with me today, nor do I have handy access to 7110.65M. Is vacating an assigned altitude required in a radar environment? If not, do most controllers expect it? Does 7110.65 address this at all?

THANKS!

 

[bafanguy]

LJDRVR,


AIM 5-3-3 ( Additional Reports ) under reports that "should" be made without specific ATC request, "at all times", it lists "When vacating any previously assigned altitude...". One could get into hair-splitting semantics about the definition of "should" ( couldn't find it in FAR Part 1 ), but my guess is that one would want to do it all the time...just one of those things. Some FAA lawyer's definition of "should" might not include any reference to the word "courtesy". It would be interesting to hear a controller's side of this. I can't imagine they want any more jabber on the freq than absolutely necessary.

Depends on what the definition of "is" is, I guess.

 

[de727ups]

I think it's a dumb call and a waste of time. I don't make the call unless the flying pilot asks me to when I don't make it. That's fine....it's no big deal. Especially when the frequency is busy, it's a call that shouldn't be made, in my view. Usually the controllers give you a weak "roger" when you make the call....kinda like, "don't waste my time with that"....

 

[ATCER]

We often issue crossing restrictions... (eg. 10 SE CAMRN) Just about all foreign pilots report leaving the altitude, domestic it's hit and miss. We just roger em' ... if you don't report no one goes after you for the report, most of the time the sectors are so busy you don't want the pilot to report leaving and tie up the freq, if I need him out of that altitude for traffic or something I issue the plane exactly what I need.

I'm not sure of the rule, I can tell you that I know of situations where pilots blew the restriction, didn't report leaving, and they bought the whole error... Thinking back to training I think they are required to... I'm gonna look it up and report back.

 

[ATCER]

Hey... de727ups ... you read my mind ! LOL... I must have been typing right after you posted, I saw my post go up, saw yours (which wasn't there when I found this thread) and sat here laughing... Good to know we're on the same page...

 

[Flibmeister]

From the AIM:

"5-3-3. ADDITIONAL REPORTS
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times:
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level."


From the 7110.65:

"1-2-1 Word Meanings
As used in this manual:
a. Shall, or an action verb in the imperative sense, means a procedure is mandatory.
EXAMPLE -
The transferring controller shall forward these data to the receiving controller.
Issue an alternative clearance.
Authorize the aircraft to taxi.
Do not clear an aircraft to land on or takeoff from a closed runway.
b. Should means a procedure is recommended.
c. May or need not means a procedure is optional.
d. Will means futurity, not a requirement for the application of a procedure."


So, ass-u-ming that word meanings are the same for the AIM as they are for the 7110.65, it's a recommended report, not a mandatory report.

 

[profile]

The report is supposed to be done. If you don't do it and nothing happens, no big deal. However, if you ever had a loss of separation -- even if due to something not your fault -- and they go back and check the tapes, you will probably get hammered for it. Just like most of the other things we do these days, it's CYA. Ignore these procedures at your own peril. If you think it's a waste, than go about the proper procedures to change it, where it will be subject to review by those that know the big picture. Join your union's committee that attends ATPAC, for example, or your company's. Get involved to change it, don't just ignore the procedure because you happen to think you know better than the teams that put this stuff together.

 

[Bandit60]

From controllers that I have talked to....as far as reporting leaving the alt. is no different than if you were issued a block altitude. When issued a block you dont have to report leaving every alt. Most of the controller I have talked to say it is just like a block only you cannot go back up once you start down.

 

[Bandit60]

The report is supposed to be done. If you don't do it and nothing happens, no big deal. However, if you ever had a loss of separation -- even if due to something not your fault -- and they go back and check the tapes, you will probably get hammered for it

If there is a loss of seperation after a controller issues you a crossing restriction then the controller is at fault. If there was going to be a seperation issue at all then the controller should never give a crossing restriction instead the controller should issue a decend and maintain altitude.

 

[EagleRJ]

Some companies (like mine) require the call in their Flight Manual. Like others have said, controllers don't seem to care when you report leaving, and I think it's a waste of bandwidth. The controller's seperation is already protected by your crossing restriction, and he can see when you start down.

No getting around it when it's in your company's manual, though. It's just like AA's d*mned wind check calls.

 

[ATCER]

Most crossing restrictions are for clearing adjoining airspace, at least the sectors I work. Many sectors have complex stratification and often we have to miss the upper shelf of an above sector while feeding the sector below it. If I issue you cross 35 SE of XYZ at 9000' ... I need you at 9000' at a certain point to miss another sector. There is padding built in to these restrictions also... I may need you there by say 20 miles, but the extra provides a buffer for both of us.

If there is a loss of seperation after a controller issues you a crossing restriction then the controller is at fault. If there was going to be a seperation issue at all then the controller should never give a crossing restriction instead the controller should issue a decend and maintain altitude.

This depends... you follow the clearance, and report leaving then you're safe, we're going up to QA. You blow the clearance, then you'll get part. OE's are funny, there are more then one factor as to who gets the blame.