ATC aptitude?

[smellthejeta]

The ATC thing seems pretty whacky to me, particularly since I'm already 28. I think I'll continue the engineering thing while pushing the pilot thing on the side. If things work out for flying, great. Otherwise I've got my backup. Thanks for all the useful info everyone!

It is actually whacky. I think my ATC alma mater would make a killing by advertising that they can get you out in one semester if you have a BS and flight time. But, they don't want to do that, and instead act like they're a full two year program.

I won't argue with your reasoning -- I was a couple of years younger than you when I started, and frankly, you pretty much have to give up a lot to MAYBE get a job doing this stuff. It's like flying -- you have to want it bad enough, and you have to sacrifice a lot to do it. How would you guys feel about giving up up to two years of your life to MAYBE get ONE job with ONE company? It's like paying $8k for a type to go to WN and then you never go to WN. FWIW, I was trying to get a flying spot in the USAF, and had I medically qualified, I never would have pursued the ATC gig for the reasons listed above.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

The ATC hiring process sucks as of now but in a few years it should pick up significantly. I was hired on in 03 and was the second to last class to hit up the MMAC in OKC before they shut the door for 2 years. Now days pretty much all new hires are going enroute and from what ive heaerd from friends there now, people are washing left and right, in and out of the academy. Although it does somewhat take a certain personality to do the job, anyone can do it, if you have the patience. The OPM test has been eleminated to my knowledge. They have the ATSAT now. Basically, goto a CTI school, get the degree, take the ATSAT and then wait. I waited 2 1/2 years until I heard anything and it was another year until i was in Oklahoma city. Any questions PM me, ill tell you anything you need to know. Goto NATCA's website, they have good info on there.

MK

 

[RUNNINHORN]

Of the 14 schools, four of them are community colleges and offer a 2 year AS program. The rest are four year schools, and AFAIK, only 1 of them has a 2 year option. The rest require you to complete a four year degree.

which is the one that offers the 2 year program? Im 28, just turned 28, would I be too old to still attend the 2 year and try and get hired?

 

[RUNNINHORN]

I just read where MCTC's program in minnesota is a 3 semester program. That is doable since I just have 2 more years of eligibility.

 

[smellthejeta]

which is the one that offers the 2 year program? Im 28, just turned 28, would I be too old to still attend the 2 year and try and get hired?

I think the one "four year" school that offers a two-year option is the "College of Aeronautics" on LGA airport. The name has changed, however.

The community colleges are:

Minneapolis Tech
Beaver County -- North of PIT
Miami Dade
Mt. San Antonio College (near ONT)

You have to do your homework, because even though these programs are billed as a 2 year program, it is possible to get out really fast if you have a 4 year degree and/or flight time.

 

[RUNNINHORN]

thanks man.

I have a 4 year degree, or finishing it up right now, currently 118 hours.

Are all of those you posted the one's that offer the 2 year option? (just clarifying)

Also, i turn 28 next week, is there still hope for me in this field or am I too close to 31?

 

[smellthejeta]

thanks man.

I have a 4 year degree, or finishing it up right now, currently 118 hours.

Are all of those you posted the one's that offer the 2 year option? (just clarifying)

Also, i turn 28 next week, is there still hope for me in this field or am I too close to 31?

Yeah, they're all two year programs. I don't know about the four year schools at all, because when I looked at programs I had my BS and 300 hours of flight time. I was looking for THE FASTEST way to get my ATC stuff. I still have 300 hours of flight time

You're still young enough. Truth be told, I graduated in May '05, so I'm not sure how quickly students are being accepted to the ATC schools. Beaver runs a waiting list, but that has changed since I looked at their program, so YMMV. Miami Dade's program is a little obtuse -- they structure the ATC classes as electives around an AS-Aviation Management program or something like that. It's hard to get out of a significant number of courses. Minneapoplis Tech's program I know nothing about. They started it after I started mine. Actually, it's a reincarnation of a very different type of program that no longer exists.

I went to Mt. SAC. At the time, they credited me ALL of my gen ed credits for having a BS, and I either waived or did credit by exam for about 12 additional credits. My net "time in school" was 18.5 credits +/-. I did it in two semesters.

There's a guy I met around these boards who worked for Comair, although he is no longer an active pilot. At the time, he bid a reserve schedule to work weekends in CVG, and then commuted out to ONT/LAX for class. He graduated in ONE semester.

Like I said, I know zip about the program in MSP. So, do your homework and check it out, but I'm fairly certain that Mt.SAC still has the quickest program for people in your shoes. The program itself sucks, but it's quick.

 

[RUNNINHORN]

thanks.

Mt. Sac is actually one of the few that my wife and I could make work since I have a house in Los Angeles.

How much did Mt. Sac cost? Did you do it in 2 semesters going full time? Meaning, 15+ hours a semester? Were these day classes or night classes?

How hard was it getting in to Mt. Sac?

Have you heard from the FAA yet? Did they help you get in with the FAA?

Thanks for the help.

 

[smellthejeta]

thanks.

Mt. Sac is actually one of the few that my wife and I could make work since I have a house in Los Angeles.

How much did Mt. Sac cost? Did you do it in 2 semesters going full time? Meaning, 15+ hours a semester? Were these day classes or night classes?

How hard was it getting in to Mt. Sac?

Have you heard from the FAA yet? Did they help you get in with the FAA?

Thanks for the help.

Mt. SAC is dirt cheap. Put your CA mailing address on your paperwork, and you pay in state tuition. It's about $30/cr hr when I was there. I was out of state, so I paid $170/cr hour. It was the cheapest of any of the schools.

I did one semester part time, and one semester full time (6/12.5). They are mostly day classes, with a few night classes. I think they rotate the night classes.

Mt. SAC is easy to get into -- they don't screen their applicants. If you can fill out the app and pay your tuition, you're in. It's another reason I went there. The downside is that the classes are limited enrollment, and the admit-everybody process can put a squeeze on your ability to get into the classes you want. They added a faculty member so they could offer more sections. With the cut in ATC pay, I think you'll have an easier time getting into the specific classes, but I think you better check with somebody who's been there more recently than I -- I got done in May '05.

The FAA hiring process is a whole 'nuther can of worms. Mt. SAC didn't do squat, but they don't have to either. It's one aspect of aviation where there are more jobs than there are applicants/CTI graduates. When you graduate, your name goes into a database and the FAA calls you from there. You get preferences sheets about what region/state you want to go to. The selection process that I used is different than what it is now, so I can't help you with that.

Yes, I've heard from the FAA. I made a few phone calls, and picked a place where I "knew" I could get hired very quickly. I heard from the FAA in October '05, which was really really quickly considering a number of things. First, at the time, there was a HUGE backlog of graduates that were getting facility placements and class dates. Second, I didn't take the aptitude test (AT-SAT) until July '05. Third, since I didn't know where I wanted to go right away, I sat on some paperwork and turned it in Sept '05. So they called me a month after my final paperwork was in.

My friend who graduated with me has a Sept 22 OKC class date, for an assignment at ORD Tracon. Lucky him. My assignment is at Houston Center (at least that's where it was the last time I checked). I won't be going to training for awhile -- I have a hangup in my medical that is going to sideline me for about a year. Given the current state of affairs, I haven't quite made up my mind whether or not I'm going to accept the position. However, medically, I've gone too far just to walk away, and if I did, I couldn't even get a second class medical right now. So, I'm doing what I have to medically (indpendent of the FAA) and am going to figure out the rest when the time comes.

 

[RUNNINHORN]

wow, thanks for that info.

How indepth was the background check with the FAA? Reason I ask is when i was a freshman in college was stupid and worked at like 6 different jobs, and just quit a few, didnt know if that would hurt me.

How much was the ATC pay cut?

If you dont mind, what salary range did they offer to start you at?

 

[smellthejeta]

wow, thanks for that info.

How indepth was the background check with the FAA? Reason I ask is when i was a freshman in college was stupid and worked at like 6 different jobs, and just quit a few, didnt know if that would hurt me.

I don't know how to quantify the background check -- it's more lengthly than anything you've done for a civillian job (the paperwork is a royal PITA) but it's not as bad as the super duper top secret clearance that some people in other government jobs have to get. It's the same paperwork though

They're not going to care about your job history, as long as you didn't do anything criminal and get fired for it. By that, I mean if you stole from an employer and got fired, it would raise a flag, but bouncing around jobs isn't going to matter.

The two things you absolutely must do: Keep your credit straight. If it's messy, get everything caught up, and if you can't, get on payment plans with your creditors so you can demonstrate that you can handle your finances. The other is drug usage: Don't use them. You have to take a drug test as well.

Other than that, there's not a whole lot to worry about, presuming you don't have much of a criminal history. If you do, I can't help you with that.

How much was the ATC pay cut?

If you dont mind, what salary range did they offer to start you at?

Pay cut: My facility it was 30% for beginning "captain" pay. I'm now going to make $70k instead of $100k. Pay scale tops out at $100k, but that's this contract -- so I paid attention to what was going to affect me on this contract and not much about the back ends of the paybands.

I use the term "captain" pay because most people don't realize that ATC'ers don't make the "average" salary from the get-go. We have the equivalent of FO's (copilots) and captains (CPC -- fully certified controllers).

The amount of time you spend as a "copilot" varies from facility to facility. It can vary from under a year at some some tracons and towers, to over 2 years at the centers. My training pay comes in I think three phases. First is trainee pay at OKC Academy, which is $8.85/hr I spend 3 months there as a center controller. The tracon/tower guys spend about half that time there. Then, I have two phases of facility training pay. When I walk in the door at my facility, I make $30k/yr. I don't understand the training pay progression, but it's tied to competency, not time. It would be like an FO getting an instant raise the minute he gets his ATP, even if he wasn't a captain yet. After that, I get a raise to something like $40-$50k. Finally, when I check out completely, my starting "captain" pay is $70k. If you were in a tower/tracon, you should progress through training and pay much faster. One of the training pay scales doesn't even exist in the lower level facilities.

My medical is consuming most of my time and effort right now, so I haven't paid too much attention to the training progression and related payscales. I have some idea what I'm in for, but that's about it. Until this medical gets wrapped up, I'm not going anywhere.

 

[Tug Driver]

question

somewhere I heard that if your a controller, you cannot work concurrently as a CFI or corporate pilot...

Is there any truth to that?

 

[wrxpilot]

somewhere I heard that if your a controller, you cannot work concurrently as a CFI or corporate pilot...

Is there any truth to that?

No. I've met ATCers that actively do both of those.