Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

ATA Fragmentation Language

  • Thread starter Thread starter Noam
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 7

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Noam

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Posts
71
Hello,

It appears that at ATA our financial outlook is increasingly negative.

In our last concessionary agreement "fragmentation" language was added (the language is at the bottom of this post).

What do you think of it? I'd especially appreciate hearing from people that have been benefited and/or victimized by fragmentation language in the past.

I'm curious if such language will really hold through if a merger, buyout, bankruptcy, etc. occurs. Should we at ATA be holding our breath for this language to work? What are your thoughts?

Sincerely,

Noam

Subject: Amendment to Section 1 (Fragmentation)

THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is entered into by and between ATA Airlines, Inc. (the "Company" or "ATA") and the Air Line Pilots Association, International (the "Association"), collectively referred to as “the Parties,” pursuant to the terms of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.

NOW, THEREFORE, the Parties agree to the following:

This shall confirm the Parties agreement to replace the language in Section 1.F. of the Collective Bargaining Agreement effective July 1, 2002 in its entirety with the following:

F. Fragmentation

1. If the Company transfers (by sale, lease or other transaction) or disposes of aircraft or route authority which produced thirty percent (30%) or more of the Company’s operating revenues over the prior twelve (12) months,or which produced thirty percent (30%) or more of the Company’s block hours over the prior twelve (12) monthsnet of additions to the Company’s operating revenues or block hours produced by aircraft or routes acquired during the same twelve (12) month period, or ten (10) aircraft whichever is less, to a person or entity or to a group of persons or entities acting in concert (the “Transferee”) that is, controls or is under the control of an air carrier or that will operate as, control or be under the control of an air carrier following its acquisition of the Company’s aircraft or route authority (any such transaction, a “Substantial Asset Sale”), then:

a. The Company shall require the Transferee to offer employment to Crewmembers from the ATA Crewmembers’ Seniority List who are Status Qualified on the aircraft being transferred and whose identity shall be determined consistent with the seniority provisions of the Agreement (the “Transferring Crewmembers”). The number of Transferring Crewmembers shall be the sum of (i) the average monthly Crewmember staffing per aircraft over the prior twelve (12) months actually utilized in the operation of the aircraft transferred to the Transferee in connection with the Substantial Asset Sale plus (ii) the average monthly Crewmember staffing over the prior twelve (12) months actually utilized in the operation of the route authority transferred to the Transferee in connection with the Substantial Asset Sale to the extent such Crewmember staffing is not included in the calculation of paragraph 1.a.(i) above; and

b. The Company shall require the Transferee to provide any Transferring Crewmembers with the seniority integration rights provided in Sections 2, 3, and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs except that the integration of the Transferring Crewmembers into the Transferee’s seniority list shall be governed by Association Merger Policy if both pre-transaction Crewmember groups are represented by the Association. The Company shall require the Transferee to agree, and the Transferee shall agree, to provide the seniority integration rights specified in the preceding sentence in connection with a Substantial Asset Sale in a written document.

c. For purposes of this Subsection 1., the fragmentation provisions contained herein shall not apply to the Company’s retirement of the L1011 fleet.

This Amendment to Section 1 (Fragmentation) Letter of Agreement shall be effective upon execution of and shall run concurrently with the Flight Deck Crewmembers’ Collective Bargaining Agreement that became effective on July 1, 2002. However, if a letter of commitment for the acquisition of a 100 to 110 seat aircraft is not signed by ATAH by June 30, 2005, this Amendment to Section 1 (Fragmentation) Letter of Agreement shall become null and void.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Amendment to Section 1 (Fragmentation) Letter of Agreement this ____ day of ____________, 2004.
 
I am not a Lawyer, but I reads to me that is the aircraft are sold (sold or merger) you go with them, provided that fleet type is sold as a 30% of revenue or flying block. But if they return aircraft, sell gates or return some aircraft (if they are leased) and sell others (if they are owned). Or fragment the fleet or route even if they end up at the same other airline (Mainline and Wholely Owned) you are up the creek. It reads more in the line of a Merger/Acquisition vs a scale back or Ch11/7 event.

my.oooooooo15 cents
 
Last edited:
These agreements are nothing more than feel good things for the troops. When it comes down to nut cutting time, rest asssured the lawyers will always find loopholes if there are roadblocks i.e employees.

Quite a while ago Transtar with their MD80's had something similar and when CAL
bought the 80's we basically said no to any types of deals contingent upon employee transfers. The agreements vanished overnight by legal sleight of hand.

Now the question is how much will ALPA fight to enforce this agreement? Honestly, I wouldn't hold my breath.

BTW, I thought the financing for the B717 fell through, so didn't this null and void the terms of this agreement anyway right from the start?
 
Last edited:
Well, I belive you are correct about the B717 being a mute point at this time. However, it appears our Neg Comm will be going back to either create new or rewrite the old (7 weeks old) concessions in the upcoming months...so who knows what new stuff will be created.
 
Moot! Not Mute... Mute means unable to speak. Moot means academic, theoretical, etc. OK, let me get off my hobby horse now...

Noam said:
Well, I belive you are correct about the B717 being a mute point at this time. However, it appears our Neg Comm will be going back to either create new or rewrite the old (7 weeks old) concessions in the upcoming months...so who knows what new stuff will be created.
 
Noam said:
Hello,

I'm curious if such language will really hold through if a merger, buyout, bankruptcy, etc. occurs. Should we at ATA be holding our breath for this language to work? What are your thoughts?

Sincerely,

Noam

Noam:
Not trying to flame bait or be a smart alec, but ask any Pan Am pilot what happened after Delta bought their assets in the early 90's. In my humble opinion, those fragmentation clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on, so you better hope that its soft paper.
My hopes are with you guys as you have a class bunch of folks there!
Good luck
737
 
Rest assured, ALPA National will sell out the ATA pilots in a heartbeat if it's beneficial to ALPA National. I wish y'all luck and don't put any faith in your union.
 
Thanks for the spelling lesson..."mute" looked strange when I wrote it! :)

I too was thinking that the frag. language isn't worth a whole lot, but I wanted to hear it from others before I jumped to that conclusion.

You are absolutely correct about the pilots at ATA. They are true professionals and a wonderful group of people to fly with. Let's hope for the best.

Noam
 
vc10 said:
Moot! Not Mute... Mute means unable to speak. Moot means academic, theoretical, etc. OK, let me get off my hobby horse now...
Arguing a case in moot court at college doesn't make the word moot mean academic or theoretical.
 
TWA Dude said:
Rest assured, ALPA National will sell out the ATA pilots in a heartbeat if it's beneficial to ALPA National. I wish y'all luck and don't put any faith in your union.
<yawn>

The boogie man is out to get you, eh? Give me a break. ALPA National takes way too much heat on here, especially from you TWA guys. ALPA National will have very little, if any, involvement in a merger/acquisition issue with the ATA guys. They just provide the lawyer to assist the NC and Merger Committee.

Sam
 
Just give it time. Stay a member of ALPA long enough at a carrier that is not one of their "big dues money" favorites and you will change your tune. It is all about money. Decisions are not made based on what is good for the profession.
 
Before this get into a big ALPA bashing circle jerk...the original question was specific to Fragmentation language.

Sec F. paragraph 1 and 1A are standard frag language. The only variable is the number of aircraft and the number of crew, which leads one to believe that they have a plan to move a certain number of aircraft.

Paragraph 1B is law straight from the RLA

1C is their language and implies that they have already told you that the L10's are leaving.

If you do not have any Fragmentation language in your current contract and this was a part of the most recent concession, then I would prepare for more than the L10's being moved. Just my opinion.
 
Sam Fisher said:
ALPA National will have very little, if any, involvement in a merger/acquisition issue with the ATA guys. They just provide the lawyer to assist the NC and Merger Committee.
Emphasis added. What exactly do you think the lawyer is there to do? The TWA MEC had an ALPA-supplied lawyer. We thought he represented US but he really represented the ALPA EC, ie, the non-chapter 11 legacy carriers. Ask Allegheny guys how much assistance they got from National. You can believe me or not; it won't affect me. All I can say is that ATA if faced with a merger they should pay for their own lawyer in addition to possibly listening to what the Herndon, VA lawyer says.
 
TWA Dude said:
Emphasis added. What exactly do you think the lawyer is there to do? The TWA MEC had an ALPA-supplied lawyer. We thought he represented US but he really represented the ALPA EC, ie, the non-chapter 11 legacy carriers. Ask Allegheny guys how much assistance they got from National. You can believe me or not; it won't affect me. All I can say is that ATA if faced with a merger they should pay for their own lawyer in addition to possibly listening to what the Herndon, VA lawyer says.
I disagree. Furthermore, the ALPA attorney that works with the NC's works FOR that pilot group. The NC should be smart enough to figure out if they are being led astray. Get off the whole "AA vs TWA" thing....seriously....your carrier was done and dead unfortunately and the company would have been liquidated in a period of days. The ALPA lawyer is not why you got "screwed." It is public knowledge that as part of Carty's condition to buy TWA, all employees had to give up seniority rights.

Sam
 
Sure it does. Why is it a "moot" court? Because it's not real---it's a dry run, its decisions have no practical effect, etc.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pilot flame war.

FN FAL said:
Arguing a case in moot court at college doesn't make the word moot mean academic or theoretical.
 
Sam Fisher said:
I disagree. Furthermore, the ALPA attorney that works with the NC's works FOR that pilot group.
I don't know what your source of info is, but our NC members feel betrayed by our ALPA-supplied lawyer. You gotta consider what Woerth was thinking: should we support our charter members who are soon-to-be non-members or do whatever appeases the APA in hopes of getting 10,000 pilots back into ALPA? It wasn't personal; it was business.
The NC should be smart enough to figure out if they are being led astray.
The Section 1113 bankrupcty proceedings we were experiencing were unprecedented. Nobody knew what the heck was gonna happen.
Get off the whole "AA vs TWA" thing....seriously....your carrier was done and dead unfortunately and the company would have been liquidated in a period of days.
What in the heck does it matter how I feel about what we went through? I didn't even mention AA. This is about what ATA pilots might have to deal with. I only wish them to avoid the mistakes our MEC made. What's your motivation? We put our trust in the wrong people.
The ALPA lawyer is not why you got "screwed." It is public knowledge that as part of Carty's condition to buy TWA, all employees had to give up seniority rights.
Not exactly. Carty did indeed need TWALPA to relinquish our right to binding arbitration, however, we were advised that if we refused the judge would abrogate our whole contract. That's what scared us into submission. Once again, unprecedented. In other words the sale would've gone through one way or another. This served Woerth and the EC very well. The mood was that more consolidation was inevitable and that the biggies (then healthy) UAL/DAL/NW had to protect themselves from hordes of senior pilots at financially struggling carriers. In retrospect we should've taken our chances with the judge.
 
The Emery Worldwide Airlines pilots got screwed by ALPA too.


The reason? Easy. M-O-N-E-Y.

EWA wasn't contributing enough revenue to ALPA for ALPA to make the fight worth it. If ALPA would have fought to keep EWA pilot jobs, they would have spent far more money than the revenue they'd have seen from EWA in several years.

Truly sad.

But, now is a different time and a different game. Airline management is using the threat of bankruptcy and/or liquidation to force concessions on the pilots. Due to the lack of a national seniority list many pilots will cave and work for less rather than be out on the street.

Sometimes I wish I would have never started to work in this "profession".

GP

PS- Good luck to all of you at ATA and USAir.
 
GuppyPuppy said:
The Emery Worldwide Airlines pilots got screwed by ALPA too.
May I harp on this once again? And we all wonder what motivates people to cross ALPA pickets lines and become scabs?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top