Assoc. Press study finds older pilots=accidents

[T1bubba]

AP study much more factual than your contradictional account of a biased view without supporting evidence of a respresentative sample concerning older pilots.

Older pilots owning aircraft and flying a typical <100 hour year verse younger pilots attaining private pilot through CFI ratings flying >250 hours per year is the same kind of anecdotal evidence you provided above which is not as yours is not as accurate as the AP study.

The anaylsis is good it just contradicts the older view point.

Do you not understand why any valid statistical study needs to be corrected for volume? That's why the airline industry uses CASM and RASM, not just comparing overall costs.

If the U.S. had 500 GA accidents last year and the Bahamas had 10, you couldn't draw the conclusion that the U.S. was 50 times more dangerous to fly in (numbers made up to illustrate a point). You have to know how much flying was going on for the comparison to be valid.

There may be plenty of studies out there that show older pilots are more dangerous, but this isn't one of them.

The auto safety advocates are another group that constantly ignores volume corrections. They say that the number of auto accidents has started to rise since the national 55 mph speed limit was raised. They never mention the fact that the rate of accidents per mile driven has continued to decline.

 

[3BCat]

I know this has been beaten to death, year after year, but you guys who support raising the age, that's fine; but how high? If you go 65, in 5 more years, those at 65 will be saying "I've got 58,370 hours. I'm safe. Let's go to 70" etc. The bar will be continually raised. If 60 is "arbitrary", then so is 65.

Will there be a motor-skills test? If that happens, you'll get some 80 yr old guys passing, and some 35's failing. So be it, but be prepared to be subject to some IBM PC coordination test every 6 months at your flight physical.

Cut to the quick - who decides if an individual is safe?

I say if you can pass the PC, the oral, the ground school, the line check and the medical, you are competent to work. These are the criteria that all professional pilots, young and old, have to meet or fail. They are the same for everyone.

You're absolutely right; 60, 65, and 70 are all arbitrary. It doesn't matter how old you are. If you don't perform to standards, you don't work. If you don't need to work, you retire.

 

[3BCat]

The FAA decides and has decided that the variables above age 60 are not in the publics best interests concerning safety.

But short side ALPA pilots that have refused to step up to the plate and make a stand in the last five years have pushed this issue in the slippery slope of the political world that does not always deal in reality and has no moral compass concerning safety and the lives of the traveling public.

This is not a political issue as it is being framed by those wanting change. It is a safety issue that has a black and white cause and affect. But those arguing against will have some personal story showing old joe blow did fine and holding him up as some example for us all.

The FAA is in the safety business, Congress is in the funny money business.

How about a courtesy flush!?!? Thats a bunch of crap!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Trust me I don't see any of the older capts. I fly with having any decision problems or demonstrating any other issues in the cockpit.

...an old pilot

LOL!!!!!!!!

Now there's an unbiased opinion. :laugh:


BBB

 

[Uppercrust]

[

quote=matt1.1]
For Bob Loo, who regularly soared above Michigan’s rugged Upper Peninsula counting wolves for the state natural resources department, the cause is clearer. He suffered an apparent heart attack in mid-flight in June 2002 and died in the crash that followed.
“That’s the way he wanted to die, I guess,” said his longtime companion, Clarice Arnell of Iron River, Mich.
But the 78-year-old former World War II pilot concealed from the FAA a long history of ailments that included blocked arteries, gout and congestive heart failure so that he could keep flying his Cessna 182.
Every year from 1978 to 2002, Loo obtained a Class 2 medical certificate from the FAA.
In the medical history section of each application, he checked “no” when asked if he had been admitted to a hospital or suffered dizziness, fainting or heart trouble.
M.D. signed forms
He was lying, according to the report on his crash prepared by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The NTSB investigation found that Loo’s aviation medical examiner from 1988 to 1994 — such doctors are certified to determine whether pilots are fit to fly — treated Loo for his gout, heart disease and diabetes. The examiner then signed the FAA applications, the NTSB said in its report.
Anonymous tipsters twice told the FAA that Loo shouldn’t fly. An unsigned letter in July 1978 prompted an FAA review, but that was dropped in December of that year after Loo insisted that his health was “excellent,” according to the NTSB report.
Living alone in a small cottage, Loo was most comfortable in the solitude of the sky. “That was his love. As long as he could be in a plane, he was happy,” Arnell said.

[/QUOTE]

Good for him. He died doing what he loved.

 

[Purpledog]

"I've got 58,370 hours. I'm safe. Let's go to 70" etc.

More realistically," I just bought a $58,370 boat/airplane because I'm a dumba$$ and I now need to work until 70 to pay for it". It cracks me up when I fly with these guys that think they are rich Captains. How does a pilot become a millionaire? Give him 2 million to invest.

 

[3BCat]

Age a factor for pilots

Study shows older pilots crash more
By Ryan Pearson
Associated Press
Posted Sunday, March 26, 2006

Thank God for the press. We wouldn't have any grasp on reality if it weren't for the media! Like this, for instance...

A photographer for CNN was assigned to cover southern California's wildfires last year. He wanted pictures of the heroic work the firefighters were doing as they battled the blazes.

When the photographer arrived on the scene, he realized that the smoke was so thick it would seriously impede, or even make impossible, his getting good
photographs from the ground level. He requested permission from his boss to rent a plane and take photos from the air. His request was approved and he used his cell phone to call the local county airport to charter a flight. He was told a single engine plane would be waiting for him at the airport.

Arriving at the airfield, he spotted a plane warming up outside a hanger . He jumped in with his bag, slammed the door shut, and shouted, "Let's go!"
The pilot taxied out, swung the plane into the wind and roared down the runway.

Once in the air, the photographer requested the pilot to, "Fly over the valley and make two or three low passes so I can take some pictures of the fires on the hillsides."

"Why?" asked the pilot.

"Because I'm a photographer for CNN," he responded. "And, I need to get some close-up shots."

The pilot was strangely silent for a moment, finally he stammered, "So, you're telling me you're not the flight instructor?

 

[matt1.1]

UpperCrust- you did read the pilot lied on his medical report didn't you?

Good for him. He died doing what he loved.

In the medical history section of each application, he checked “no” when asked if he had been admitted to a hospital or suffered dizziness, fainting or heart trouble.
M.D. signed forms
He was lying, according to the report on his crash prepared by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The NTSB investigation found that Loo’s aviation medical examiner from 1988 to 1994 — such doctors are certified to determine whether pilots are fit to fly — treated Loo for his gout, heart disease and diabetes. The examiner then signed the FAA applications, the NTSB said in its report.
Anonymous tipsters twice told the FAA that Loo shouldn’t fly.

Thanks for making my point why over 60 pilots should be grounded. Lairs do not add credibility to your cause. More over 60 pilots may just lie on their reports to obtain a new medical. That is not a good thing to promote.

 

[flx757]

As opposed to all the younger guys who lie about their DUIs? I guess it just helps if we ALL generalize and stereotype. That way, we can prevent actual facts from clouding the issue.

Maybe you should accept your latest of many attempts to incite with this issue has failed and you go away and try yet again at a later date.

After all, we all appear too passive and disengaged for your agenda. Right?

 

[matt1.1]

3bcat dug this thread up not me so it must be interesting someone.

As opposed to all the younger guys who lie about their DUIs? I guess it just helps if we ALL generalize and stereotype. That way, we can prevent actual facts from clouding the issue.

Maybe you should accept your latest of many attempts to incite with this issue has failed and you go away and try yet again at a later date.

After all, we all appear too passive and disengaged for your agenda. Right?

And I hope those that lied about their DUI get caught as well. Lying is not the right thing to do in any situation.

And as far as clouding the issue, old pilots are kings of the red herring. ie. young pilots lying about DUI reports.

Thanks for your support 3bcat for bring this thread back and flx757 for making my point.

 

[3BCat]

You're welcome. You're also way off base. Data regarding accidents with older pilots at the controls is skewed due to the Age 60 Rule.

Liars start lying long before they are 60.

People that support discrimination, will reap what they sow.

If you can pass the PC, the Oral, the Recurrent, the Line Check, and the Physical requirements, I say you remain competent to work...regardless of age.

 

[flx757]

Yep Matt. I made your point. The point that all you are attempting to do is take an emotional, highly polarized issue and incite it. Period. You have tried it numerous times on this board.

Have fun with it.

By the way...at what point do I become an "old" pilot? Is there some "magic" age? Maybe when I eventually pass 50? Or 55? Or when I passed 40? When it it, Matt? Just curious. I want to know so I can be sure and retire before then so I can assure myself I will retire while still superior and mistake-proof.

 

[enigma]

matt1.1, Until you find some data that shows the accident stats for over 60 pilots who: fly for a US based 121 carrier following 121 rules/regs, pass a first class every six months, pass a PC every six months, attend recurrent every year, pass a line check every six months, fly aircraft maintained up to 121 standards, and have a partner (co pilot) continually observing their performance......You will have only proven that you have a personal bone to pick. Let it go man.

enigma

BTW, the way my eyes went south after 40, I don't know if I even make sixty, but those who want to fly and are able to continue to pass the tests, should not be arbitrarily pushed out.

 

[matt1.1]

What bone? Changing age 60 or keeping it?

You will have only proven that you have a personal bone to pick. Let it go man.

The bone was picked when the issue became an issue. Defending the current rule is important just as some think changing it is. The problem I am having is the radical changing of something without any regard for those that it affects. Changing it over a 30 year period would be one thing. Changing it overnight is another. Keep it the same and I don't have an issue.

Let it go as you say- stop forcing a change-keep age 60.

 

[joevollers]

The bone was picked when the issue became an issue. Defending the current rule is important just as some think changing it is. The problem I am having is the radical changing of something without any regard for those that it affects. Changing it over a 30 year period would be one thing. Changing it overnight is another. Keep it the same and I don't have an issue.

Let it go as you say- stop forcing a change-keep age 60.

You guys are tards ..............

That Article does not have enough info in it to provide someone with an informed opinion on age 60

Matt1.1... you do not have enough statistical data to say whether there are safety pros or cons.. that article you posted was weak and should not even be on the majors board as it has no relevance to AGE 60. There was not enough info in it to for someone to even form an opinion....
Let's be honest, You want AGE 60 to stay because(now here's the guess) you are nowhere near age 60 and would like some speedy advancement of you carreer... which is a perfectly justifiable opinion for you to have... Just call it what it is and stop pretendin you care about safety... If safety was your true concern; you would be for a detailed study that would present a finding of an appropriate retirement age for airline pilots... that may be 50,45, 67,63, or 80... but I'm guessing that this is not your motivation...

 

[matt1.1]

FAR 61.3 j 1

The issue concerns an FAR. FAR's are about safety. FAR's are only created to improve safety. The FAA is in the safety business. Anything in the discussion past safety is not important to the FAA. And those that have taken this beyond the FAA to Congress have the motivation and agenda problems.

Those wanting to change FAR 61.3 (j) (1) are wanting to decrease safety.

61.3 (j) (1)- Age limitation.....no person who holds a pilot certificate issued under this part shall serve as a pilot on a civil airplane of US registry in the following operations if the person has reached his or her 60th birthday....

 

[joevollers]

Wow.. FAR"S are about safety huh?... You obviously do not understand why the age 60 rule was implemented in the first place... and the FAA has not provided statistical evidence to show that this rule is about safety.. So why not show us why this is in fact safer??

IF you are , in fact, so concerned about safety... Then why not promote a study on when safety should dictate retirement... as opposed to being for a rule that there is no hard evidence to prove is safe... Why not just be for trying to prove it through sound LOGIC.. Instead of circular logic like in the article you posted

 

[pilotyip]

matt, Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism

 

[TAZ MAN]

matt, Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism

And that is the bottom line.

 

[Gorilla]

How about a grandfather clause? "All ATP holders as of this date, if operating 121, will retire at 60. Those without an ATP as of this date, if/when they fly part 121, will be allowed to fly to 65."

In other words, you knew what the rules were when you signed up. Now abide by them. I include myself in that group.