Assignment of PIC / SIC

hiropilot

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I searched the old threads to see if this had ever been discussed before. No able to find anything so I would like to inquire here.
The debate is - does a pilot have to be checked as SIC to be assigned that position if he/she is qualified as a PIC on that aircraft? My position is that even though the pilot was trained and checked as PIC, he or she has to also be trained/checked for SIC assignment to be made. Other side of debate is that since the PIC is a higher position, no checking required for SIC to make assisgnment as SIC.
Part 135 is very clear on what is required for PIC but isn't very specific on the SIC issue.
We have a pilot that completed training same as PIC but will only be checked as SIC. I don't have a position on this part of the argument since I haven't come across that scenario before.
The answer I am looking for is legal interpretation on the intent of the regs for assignment of SIC is pilot hasn't been checked for SIC, only PIC.
Thanks in advance for all input.
 

340drvr

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I'll take a quick stab at this, in a nutshell:

135.245 lists SIC requirements (minimal, basically appropriate pilot certificates). A qualified PIC would meet this.

135.293 checkride every 12 months for pilots, i.e. both PIC and SIC. A current PIC would meet this one by default.

135.329 training program requirements for pilots

So, the specifics really come down to whatever is in your company's approved training manual as far as what's required for ground subjects, flight maneuvers, req'd training time, etc., for SIC's. More than likely, PIC training would check off all the boxes (and more) required for SIC, but you'd need to check your training manual to make sure.
 
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hiropilot

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Exactly my position except that at a previous employer, we got dinged by POI for assigning pilot (that was qualified as PIC) as SIC but he had not been "checked" in the SIC position. Would you agree that if the pilot was checked for PIC and then did a takeoff and landing from right seat then should be okay if issigned either position?
Thanks!
 

ultrarunner

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Each visit to FSI, the instructor makes a note that SIC proficiency demonstrated. We don't fly charters, but in the event we did, this statement, along with meeting the requirements of our training manual, would allow either PIC to be assigned SIC duties. Not a big deal.
 

stupidpilot

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You have to demonstrate a takeoff and landing from the right seat to be able to act as SIC. Every recurrent I have had to do this.
 

ultrarunner

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You have to demonstrate a takeoff and landing from the right seat to be able to act as SIC. Every recurrent I have had to do this.
That statement assumes the aircraft is SIC/PIC seat-dependent. OR the FOM specifies PIC/SIC seats. That's pretty much a 121 thing...not so much 135.
 

GREAT LAKES

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Pic/sic

It depends what you put on your Training/Checking Authorization for your Training Provider. If you put check both, they will put a note SIC demonstrated in the remarks section of the 8410. A PIC check requires more manuvers in addition to the ones required for an SIC. So essentially by default, they may be "duty assigned" as a PIC/SIC if noted on the 8410.
 

hiropilot

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Okay, all good info. Thanks for the replies. I think it gives me enough ammo to continue to debate my side of it.
 

brokeflyer

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It depends what you put on your Training/Checking Authorization for your Training Provider. If you put check both, they will put a note SIC demonstrated in the remarks section of the 8410. A PIC check requires more manuvers in addition to the ones required for an SIC. So essentially by default, they may be "duty assigned" as a PIC/SIC if noted on the 8410.

this is the correct answer
 

727Niteflyer

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if your in a jet on a 135 that requires 2 pilots its going to be assumed that their are PIC duties and SIC Duties both seperate. One doesnt cover the other. In order for a PIC to sit as SIC he or she has to demonstrate those duties in training (thats why all these sim training places have that). 121 of course covers this more thourough but a sharp FAA guy in 135 would hold the company to it. Most dont.
 

falcondriver

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If 135 the TCA will state what your specific company requirements are( all revolves around the POI). It usually states if you will be checked in both seats or not. The 8410 states what is required for SIC or PIC. Like someone else said, the PIC check will check off the SIC boxes. These requirments are all decided by the POI and the company.
FD
 

GREAT LAKES

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if your in a jet on a 135 that requires 2 pilots its going to be assumed that their are PIC duties and SIC Duties both seperate. One doesnt cover the other. In order for a PIC to sit as SIC he or she has to demonstrate those duties in training (thats why all these sim training places have that). 121 of course covers this more thourough but a sharp FAA guy in 135 would hold the company to it. Most dont.
Nite Flyer, You are incorrect. It's not about "duties" it's about a job aid published in the FAA's 8900 for checking. Yes a PIC check does cover the SIC check if noted on the 8410. A PIC check covers all the items on the SIC job aid plus more. As far as training goes, yes the PIC applicant will demonstrate SIC duties while sitting in the right seat during the training events. It is possible for an applicant to complete training from the "Left Seat" only. In this situation the Training Provider will have a instructor or contract pilot occupy the right seat. This happens regularly in the 135 world, which is probably different than the 121 world.
 

727Niteflyer

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Nite Flyer, You are incorrect. It's not about "duties" it's about a job aid published in the FAA's 8900 for checking. Yes a PIC check does cover the SIC check if noted on the 8410. A PIC check covers all the items on the SIC job aid plus more. As far as training goes, yes the PIC applicant will demonstrate SIC duties while sitting in the right seat during the training events. It is possible for an applicant to complete training from the "Left Seat" only. In this situation the Training Provider will have a instructor or contract pilot occupy the right seat. This happens regularly in the 135 world, which is probably different than the 121 world.
I know it happens all the time in the 135 world. But its not correct.

Lets simplify this. Look at a takeoff event in a 2 man cockpit. Capt is going to have different duties than a First Officer (not talking about PM or PNM Im talking about gaurding the throttles, holding the tiller, yoke into the wind stuff). Thats why the PIC has to demonstrate profiency in the right seat, doing seat specific tasks.

Only down to the letter of the law. This is just something that is not really addressed or enforced in the 135 world.
 
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mavrck

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We must have the same POI. Even in a King Air, which is certified as single pilot, our POI makes the PIC fly also from the right seat to qualify as SIC.

If he only does left seat, he is only authorized PIC. A king air 135 doesnt even need the SIC if the PIC has a autopilot checkride. Funny to think that this guy is a qualified 135 pic flying single pilot and cant even ride with another PIC and act as an SIC.

Things that make ya say hmmmmm.
 

PURPLEHAZE21

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In terms of FAR's...Part 135, 121, 125, and 91K specify that there will be a PIC for each flight. Even though both pilots (A/C requiring PIC/SIC) might be typed, one has to be the "official fall guy" on paper. If you are typed, you will qualify for SIC duties in that A/C....No type, then you'll most likely get a specific SIC checkout for an A/C requiring 2 pilots....good luck.
 

727Niteflyer

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In terms of FAR's...Part 135, 121, 125, and 91K specify that there will be a PIC for each flight. Even though both pilots (A/C requiring PIC/SIC) might be typed, one has to be the "official fall guy" on paper. If you are typed, you will qualify for SIC duties in that A/C....No type, then you'll most likely get a specific SIC checkout for an A/C requiring 2 pilots....good luck.
thats notwhat this thread is about
 
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