Aspen Operations

[J3 Guy]

Of course I always enjoy the landing and take off clearances with traffic on short final or on the roll, opposite direction.

J3

 

[guido411]

SID and ODP climb gradients are based on all engines operating, and extrapolating second-segment climb data to the top of the SID doesn't really work...despite what so many schoolhouse instructors teach.
http://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/climb-performance/

True but what good does this fact do for you when you lose an engine at V1? Conservative is good, no old bold pilots.

If you can meet the climb gradient of the ODP all engines operating, you'd be legal...but if you bag one then you need to have an suitable out to ensure you don't end up in cumulogranite (and to avoid that whole 91.13 thing previously mentioned). If you can see the tops of the terrain you can maintain separation visually, but if IMC the APG departure procedure is a legal means by which one can maintain obstacle clearance in a OEI situation.

Also true but technically you can do almost anything you want when operating Part 91 so long as nothing goes wrong. That's when the ol' 91.13 comes into play. That's where the "Other" category comes into play. The published takeoff mins for folks that can't make the climb gradient are to ensure a visual return to the field.

 

[BoilerUP]

True but what good does this fact do for you when you lose an engine at V1? Conservative is good, no old bold pilots.

You fly the APG departure procedure when OEI, you will remain clear of terrain provided you were at or under the max weight shown in the analysis for the conditions & the Runway DP.

Also true but technically you can do almost anything you want when operating Part 91 so long as nothing goes wrong. That's when the ol' 91.13 comes into play. That's where the "Other" category comes into play. The published takeoff mins for folks that can't make the climb gradient are to ensure a visual return to the field.

APG data gives you a safe and legal "out" in the instance something *does* go wrong...and having a runway analysis which supports your actions kinda takes away the FAA's argument about careless-and-reckless operation.

Here's the quote directly from APG:

ASPEN, CO KASE *
* ASPEN-PITKIN CO/SARDY 17 Sep 09 *
* *
* *
* Rwy TAKEOFF WEIGHTS FOR RWY 33DP REQUIRE USE OF *
* 33DP THIS TAILORED DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: *
* *
* TAKEOFF WEIGHTS FOR RWY 33DP REQUIRE *
* USE OF MODIFIED PUBLISHED -LINDZ- AND *
* -SARDD- DEPARTURE PROCEDURES. *
* *
* MAKE AN IMMEDIATE 15 DEGREE BANKED CLIMBING *
* -RIGHT- TURN TO A HEADING OF 340 DEGREES. *
* *
* *
* AT 10.3 DME SOUTH OF DBL VOR TURN -LEFT- *
* TO A HEADING OF 270 DEGREES. *
* *
* INTERCEPT THE IPKN LDA NORTHWEST COURSE *
* (OUTBOUND ON BACKCOURSE) DIRECT LINDZ *
* INTXN (DBL VOR 244/13.0). *
* *
* CLIMB IN HOLDING PATTERN AT LINDZ INTXN. *
* (WEST, LEFT TURNS, 064 INBOUND). *
* *
* *
**************************************************************************
**************************************************************************
* These procedures describe the non-standard, one engine *
* inoperative, departure flight path. The maximum allow- *
* able takeoff weights, presented in the attached analysis, *
* are based upon the procedure(s) outlined above.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

-We NEVER circle to land on Runway 33, but I know some people do in turboprops.

-We NEVER operate in or out at night.
-We ALWAYS depart 33, if tailwind is too much we park.​

-I've never been able to make the climb gradient coming out of KASE so we use the "OTHER" category takeoff mins as our required weather for departure.

-We ALWAYS include escape plan in TO brief for engine failure. Basic plan is fly up the right (east) side of the valley and turn left (west) at the valley exit and fly I-70 to KRIL.​

Check your PM for specifics on approach that I don't want to cut and paste from SOP over open forum.​

I did this in the sim (level D visuals) back in March. It was an eye opener. The canyon gets "tight" in a couple of places while at the same time requiring a 90+ deg. heading change. I am not saying that this isn't the best option in a bad situation, but it isn't as simple as following I-70 either.

 

[guido411]

You fly the APG departure procedure when OEI, you will remain clear of terrain provided you were at or under the max weight shown in the analysis for the conditions & the Runway DP.



APG data gives you a safe and legal "out" in the instance something *does* go wrong...and having a runway analysis which supports your actions kinda takes away the FAA's argument about careless-and-reckless operation.

Here's the quote directly from APG:


[/COLOR]

Both of my comments about your posts were referencing NOT using an APG. I thought we were assuming the thread-starter has never been into KASE and was not going to use an APG. I can't advise making your first couple trips to/from ASE in IFR which would negate the need for an APG. It's nice to actually SEE the rocks you are avoiding a couple times.

In my first post on this thread I mentioned escape plan flying down the east side of the valley and out to the west to KRIL, of course this is a VFR procedure. My question is, are there people out there using an APG that plan to fly the APG if they cage one at V1 in VFR conditions? If so how do you avoid the inbound aircraft coming south down the west side of the valley when the APG sends you on a 270 heading?

 

[BoilerUP]

Both of my comments about your posts were referencing NOT using an APG.

I gotcha...misunderstood what you were saying.

I can't advise making your first couple trips to/from ASE in IFR which would negate the need for an APG.

As I've said I've never been to ASE but I've gotta agree with that!

 

[semperfido]

JS,
A lot of good stuff posted here. I also slow down and configure early on the approach. There is nothing worse than being high and fast and behind the 8-ball going into ASE. So, we are slowed and in landing config at Red Table. And be aware of any possible tailwind on landing. We don't circle or land at night. I don't like to tanker too much fuel in there either. We usually don't stay, We hop back over to Denver and Hangar the Acft at Front Range Airport or maybe Colorado Springs. We go to ASE on a regular basis and no one likes it. Just wait til you get clued in on the reservation system over the Holidays- great fun on the puter.

 

[guido411]

JS,
I also slow down and configure early on the approach. There is nothing worse than being high and fast and behind the 8-ball going into ASE. So, we are slowed and in landing config at Red Table.

Can't believe this didn't get mentioned yet but a DEFINITE truth.

 

[jet2work]

My first approach and landing at KASE started with a TCAS TA for the opposite direction Citation that tower cleared for takeoff while we were on short final, followed by a Terrain, Terrain EGPWS warning after we scooted to the left of the centerline to avoid being hit by the departing traffic.

All in a days work, but if you have the ability to squelch those warnings from the cockpit speaker (so you just hear them over the headset) it will make your passengers feel alot better about the flight. Of course, if you don't like flying into KASE, then leaving the speaker on could be your ticket to not having to go back.

 

[stingray]

I ve been flying in and out of there for 8yrs.

One way in and one way out 99.9% percent of the time

One thing, this is a daytime only airport. Don't be a GIII hero. You will see the dent they made on the hill that is short final about a 100ft or less to the right

I agree get the plane configured and slowed sooner then normal.

Be vary aware of your Single engine performance. especialy on second segment climb. be able to make it to the min altitude so if you have to make a turn around you will have the terrain clearance to do it safely and land if you have to. There are other options, but those are bit of a local knowlege or by gaining expierence going in and out of Aspen. Flying on a single engine in the valleys because you can't get high enough because of lack of planning, is cause for severe pucker factor.

If you have to shoot an approach for real in there you my not realy want to be waiting for the MAP to go missed possibly do it sooner. The Missed approach procedure requires you to do a hard tight right turn of about 150 to 160degrees "I dont recall the exact number" "I dont have the plate in front of me". and pickup a localizer. "Maybe give youselfs Higher miniums". There is no room for taking your time on the miss here. You get vary close to the mountains when doing this approach and even closer on the missed approach. If you are at MAP altitude and having to do the missed in the Sh*t. This is cause for another pucker moment in my opinion. Make dam sure you know what this missed approach procedure is Ahead of time

I've flown 3 differnt airplanes in there without problems CE500Ultra, 560XL, currently the CE750. You need to be thinking ahead when going in and out of here.

Take Care, Fly Safe

IF you haven't answered it yet. What type of equipment will you guys be flying into here?