Asiana 777 Crash

[agrrlpilot]

Wasn't it United or Delta a long while back who had an incident climbing out of SFO? I know it's not the same as the Asiana crash but the reason I bring it up is because NTSB found that the crew, all really long haul pilots, weren't getting the continuous familiarity with actually flying the plane. At 25 hours of flight time per trip, most of these crews get 3, maybe 4, trips a month, and that's assuming no removals for quals, check rides, etc. Throw in a pilot who needs the experience of actually handling the controls during take off and landing in order to prepare for recurrent, some of these long haul guys and gals were getting zero actual practice for months. After that incident, I believe the airline included more sim time for these guys.

I would venture to guess something like that happened here....

 

[Fly91]

More INexperienced pilots flying big planes, or at least one inexperienced pilot not being supervised properly by the other pilot.

Wonderful.......

When will the rules change so only pilots with 2,000 hours of jet time can get a job on any size or type of turbojet/fan powered plane. So stupid. There's plenty of pilots to fill the demand with jet time like that.

Wonder when the next crash will be.....and for a stupid reason.

 

[Flying Illini]

More INexperienced pilots flying big planes, or at least one inexperienced pilot not being supervised properly by the other pilot.

Wonderful.......

When will the rules change so only pilots with 2,000 hours of jet time can get a job on any size or type of turbojet/fan powered plane. So stupid. There's plenty of pilots to fill the demand with jet time like that.

Wonder when the next crash will be.....and for a stupid reason.

Sounds like all were plenty experienced (TT wise).

 

[paid4training]

From CNN.....
The investigation into the cause of the crash has noted that the pilot in charge of the flight was in his ninth training flight on the Boeing 777 and was 11 flights short of the worldwide standard to get licensed, company officials said.

Pilot Lee Kang-kook had 43 hours of flight experience on the Boeing 777 and Saturday was his first time landing at the airport with that kind of aircraft, Asiana Airlines spokeswoman Lee Hyo-min said today at a news conference in Seoul, South Korea.

"He is a veteran pilot with almost 10,000 hours on other aircrafts like the 747," she said. "He was in the process of getting a license for the new 777.

"He has flown the new 777 nine times before to Narita [in Tokyo], London, L.A., and more. But, yes, to San Francisco, with that specific 777 type, it was his first," she added.

Lee flew with an experienced Boeing 777 pilot mentor, in accordance with world standards, the spokeswoman said. Lee's trainer Saturday was Lee Jung-min, who has more than 3,000 hours flying the 777, and a total of 12,387 hours flying experience, according to the airline.

 

[Varmint]

More INexperienced pilots flying big planes, or at least one inexperienced pilot not being supervised properly by the other pilot.

Wonderful.......

When will the rules change so only pilots with 2,000 hours of jet time can get a job on any size or type of turbojet/fan powered plane. So stupid. There's plenty of pilots to fill the demand with jet time like that.

Wonder when the next crash will be.....and for a stupid reason.

Do you know how to read? Research the guys experience level first, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

People in glass houses.....

 

[Sparse]

The conduct of the NTSB chairman and self appointed spokesperson for the agency has been a disservice to professional accident investigators. She seems more interested in demonstrating to the media her aviation knowledge than getting the real truth discovered. She should tell the media to go away and then sit down and shut up. Let the investigators do their job and the truth will be known at the appropriate time.

 

[skypine69]

The conduct of the NTSB chairman and self appointed spokesperson for the agency has been a disservice to professional accident investigators. She seems more interested in demonstrating to the media her aviation knowledge than getting the real truth discovered. She should tell the media to go away and then sit down and shut up. Let the investigators do their job and the truth will be known at the appropriate time.

BS. She is reporting factual information and making it very clear that no conclusions are being made at this time and warning the media to be very careful of drawing any conclusions from what she says.

 

[gearjockey]

AND:

She looks pretty good too.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

When I started flying 10 years ago you would never have been able to convince me that I would eventually have a crush on the chairman of the NTSB!!

 

[countbat]

From someone with Asian experience.

Probably not politically correct, but he has a point.

Passed as received. I'm NOT the author, just the messenger.
No comment.


What happened to the B-777 flight is quite simple.
1. They are Asian.
2. They are Asian .
3. They are Asian.
They cannot, nor will they ever be capable of a visual approach. Not in their skill set. They are totally directed in how to do every thing. Free thought is not allowed. Add the culture; not losing face, and the flight was doomed as soon as they were cleared for the visual.
The landing speed of 137 kts better know as Vref is 1.3 above stall. All airplanes fly this speed. So dividing 137 by 1.3 = 105 or Vs (stall). Stick shaker is 1.07 Vs or in this case 112 Kts. So they slowed 25 kts or 25x1.151=28.7 Mph.
When they finally play the cockpit voice recorder, you will find nobody said a word as the aircraft slowed. NOBODY! That is because to do so would have caused a loss of face. Many problems.
It does not matter at all the guy only had 43 hrs in type. Not at all.
He had plenty of time in 74's. An airplane is an airplane. They ALL fly the same way. (Except the piece of junk airbus)
I have watched time after time Asian carriers cleared for visual approaches miss the runway, either to high or get low and miss. I have gotten on the radio and have told the controller, send them out for the ILS or they are not landing today. Needless to say have been in trouble many times because of it.

The fact they waited til 1 or two kts above stick shaker to say something says volumes about the cockpit culture.
When I was a check airman, doing the exact thing he was doing, I allowed abt 5 kts either side of Vref before correcting. You have to see if they will correct. Part of the learning curve. Was more tolerant if fast than slow. If they did not correct the situation in a timely manner than I did. It's your Job!!
The fact that all four pilots in that cockpit allowed that aircraft to slow to stick shaker and say nothing is beyond belief by western culture standards!!!
They, the Faa and NTSB will dance around this fact, not want to offend anyone. This will also be tragic.
So if the airline sounds Asian DO NOT get on it!!!
We have been discussing over the last couple of years, that pilots being trained today with all the automation, lack basic flying skills. Both western and foreign.
We see it in the Sims every day. It is a guarantee , if they are Asian, and you take away the automation, it will not end well. Never does. But, by the same token, we have just as much failure with the new breed of American pilots.
Have had many a discussion with our FAA reps and they know it to.
This problem will only get worse over time. I would take a train but an Airplane would probably crash into it.

Have a great day!

 

[400A]

Cause aside, after seeing the video of the impact and cartwheel, you have to be impressed with the way the 777 held up. Well done Boeing.

 

[CX880]

From someone with Asian experience.

Probably not politically correct, but he has a point.

Passed as received. I'm NOT the author, just the messenger.
No comment.


What happened to the B-777 flight is quite simple.
1. They are Asian.
2. They are Asian .
3. They are Asian.
They cannot, nor will they ever be capable of a visual approach. Not in their skill set. They are totally directed in how to do every thing. Free thought is not allowed. Add the culture; not losing face, and the flight was doomed as soon as they were cleared for the visual.
The landing speed of 137 kts better know as Vref is 1.3 above stall. All airplanes fly this speed. So dividing 137 by 1.3 = 105 or Vs (stall). Stick shaker is 1.07 Vs or in this case 112 Kts. So they slowed 25 kts or 25x1.151=28.7 Mph.
When they finally play the cockpit voice recorder, you will find nobody said a word as the aircraft slowed. NOBODY! That is because to do so would have caused a loss of face. Many problems.
It does not matter at all the guy only had 43 hrs in type. Not at all.
He had plenty of time in 74's. An airplane is an airplane. They ALL fly the same way. (Except the piece of junk airbus)
I have watched time after time Asian carriers cleared for visual approaches miss the runway, either to high or get low and miss. I have gotten on the radio and have told the controller, send them out for the ILS or they are not landing today. Needless to say have been in trouble many times because of it.

The fact they waited til 1 or two kts above stick shaker to say something says volumes about the cockpit culture.
When I was a check airman, doing the exact thing he was doing, I allowed abt 5 kts either side of Vref before correcting. You have to see if they will correct. Part of the learning curve. Was more tolerant if fast than slow. If they did not correct the situation in a timely manner than I did. It's your Job!!
The fact that all four pilots in that cockpit allowed that aircraft to slow to stick shaker and say nothing is beyond belief by western culture standards!!!
They, the Faa and NTSB will dance around this fact, not want to offend anyone. This will also be tragic.
So if the airline sounds Asian DO NOT get on it!!!
We have been discussing over the last couple of years, that pilots being trained today with all the automation, lack basic flying skills. Both western and foreign.
We see it in the Sims every day. It is a guarantee , if they are Asian, and you take away the automation, it will not end well. Never does. But, by the same token, we have just as much failure with the new breed of American pilots.
Have had many a discussion with our FAA reps and they know it to.
This problem will only get worse over time. I would take a train but an Airplane would probably crash into it.

Have a great day!

Dude get real. They both had heavy Boeing experience. You saying theyve just been lucky?? A non Asian pulled up during a stall a few years ago and killed a bunch of people in New York. What do you have to say to that? He's white?

 

[countbat]

Dude get real. They both had heavy Boeing experience. You saying theyve just been lucky?? A non Asian pulled up during a stall a few years ago and killed a bunch of people in New York. What do you have to say to that? He's white?

Dude, pay attention and read first. It doesn,t belong to me. However the obvious was that they were not able to do a visual approach. Also, I believe the article, as myself being someone who did some flying in Asia. It has nothing to do with race, but it does have a lot with culture and tradition. Just an example, Bombardier in Montreal has special policies when it comes to Japanese customers. That because it had cases of harakiri for not passing a check ride.

 

[countbat]

And BTW I know a747-400 captain who does perfect auto landings. Visual or AP out of order will get him completely lost. All his landings in all other planes were a close missed from a crash. However he did m?nage to get hired by a good company and make it to the captain.

 

[belchfire]

Cause aside, after seeing the video of the impact and cartwheel, you have to be impressed with the way the 777 held up. Well done Boeing.

I hadn't seen that video, didn't know that what was left of the airframe had turned like that...no kidding, that's a hell of an airframe to have remained that well intact!

Count, I think that you have a point with the Asian culture of training and operations...though I'll never understand how an IP could have allowed a student to get the plane as slow as it did.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It has nothing to do with race, but it does have a lot with culture and tradition. Just an example, Bombardier in Montreal has special policies when it comes to Japanese customers. That because it had cases of harakiri for not passing a check ride.

I've been flying in Japan for the past 7 years and you find all kinds, the majority are very good airmen but there are some that are not that good, but then again, I can say the same about the British, Australians, Americans, South Americans, Europeans.......! This whole conversation about the reasons being that they are "Asians" it's just plain ridiculous, there are good and bad airman represented in every continent, after all, in the good'ol USA we have planted enough metal into the ground for stupidity haven't we? I don't think that we have the right to point fingers.

 

[countbat]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/12/asiana-pilots-fake-names-racist_n_3588569.html

 

[countbat]

I've been flying in Japan for the past 7 years and you find all kinds, the majority are very good airmen but there are some that are not that good, but then again, I can say the same about the British, Australians, Americans, South Americans, Europeans.......! This whole conversation about the reasons being that they are "Asians" it's just plain ridiculous, there are good and bad airman represented in every continent, after all, in the good'ol USA we have planted enough metal into the ground for stupidity haven't we? I don't think that we have the right to point fingers.

You are correct Sir. That is the reason why I gave the 747-400 driver example.
However, being almost a victimless accident, it sounds a bit funny. My understanding is that the PF was an Airbuss driver. That could be taken in consideration too. 777 is a notch longer than A320 and being kind of new on 777 he didn't have enough time to adjust to the new iron.

 

[U of I Tweak]

You are correct Sir. That is the reason why I gave the 747-400 driver example.
However, being almost a victimless accident, it sounds a bit funny. My understanding is that the PF was an Airbuss driver. That could be taken in consideration too. 777 is a notch longer than A320 and being kind of new on 777 he didn't have enough time to adjust to the new iron.

I don't think the length of the airplane was a factor in being ref-30 before someone noted the airspeed

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dumb Pilot]

My understanding is that the PF was an Airbuss driver. That could be taken in consideration too. 777 is a notch longer than A320 and being kind of new on 777 he didn't have enough time to adjust to the new iron.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense! Pilots transfer regularly from different A/C's and you begin your experience with that particular airplane at the grand total of zero hours! A lot of emphasis has been placed into the fact that PF was new to the A/C, SO WHAT! Everyone in UAL is new to the 787 and that includes the check airmen, that is not a reason nor excuse to be low and slow on final. Besides, is not like this particular guys was unfamiliar with Boeings all together, he was on the 744 prior to the AB.