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ASA Schedules 14+ hours of duty...

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flyup

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Posts
11
I know that ASA schedules their pilots for more than 14 hours of duty. Everybody at ASA seems to think that reserve time before an assigned trip doesn't count as duty. This is crazy talk... where is sorry ALPA on these issues?

Hey FAA... remember the AA KLIT crash. Check duty times for reserve pilots at ASA.
 
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From what I understand, in the eyes of the FAA reserve time is neither duty nor rest.

I appreciate your sentiment though.
 
If that was true then at the very end of your 15 hour reserve period you could be scheduled for 14 more hours of duty. We all know this is unsafe and so does the FAA. ASA pilots and all 121 pilots should know that time on reserve should be counted towards your duty period.

ASA POI's take note.

I have seen the ASA ALPA contract and it's wording is incorrect. Time on reserve is not rest. Period.
 
Hey Flyup do you work for ASA?

After 15 hrs of reserve you CANNOT be scheduled for 14hrs of duty.

If you work for us and this has happened to you,then you need to call the Scheduling Comm Chrmn on the hot line and let him know.

I've been on reserve for 4 years now and this has never happened to me. As much as our scheduling dept sucks, they have never tried to pull that one on me.

701EV
 
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Those are very informative links. Thank You.



701EV, the wording in ASA's ALPA contract states the following: 13 M.2.e. "Reserve duty days shall start at the report time."



So, as you can see your ALPA representatives have absolutely no leverage in this argument. Indeed, the contract is in violation of the FAR's!!!



With all due respect, it's laughable that you would tell your fellow pilot to go to the "scheduling committee" when their sorry contract is not correct.



The FAA needs to step in and correct the ALPA contract.
 
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flyup said:
The FAA needs to step in and correct the ALPA contract.

The FAA is our disciplinarian, watchdog and jury. That's a lot of hats to wear and work properly.
 
flyup said:
701EV, the wording in ASA's ALPA contract states the following: 13 M.2.e. "Reserve duty days shall start at the report time."

So, as you can see your ALPA representatives have absolutely no leverage in this argument. Indeed, the contract is in violation of the FAR's!!!

Which FAR does this violate? If someone is on reserve from 0400-1600 and gets called in for a duty time of 1400, they must end their duty day no later than 2000 (6 hours of duty and 8 hours of rest in the last 24) in keeping with 121.471b. No reg bust here.
 
Andy:

I think his perception was that rest ended / duty began at the pilot's duty in.

ASA does follow the 16 hour rule pretty well. The do fall down in providing compensatory rest after reduced rest because the rules are a little more complex.

The actual limit for a duty day is 15 hours. The only way that you get to 16 hours is by reducing the previous day's rest down to 8. (8 reduced rest+16=24) or (normal rest+15=24). So after you go over 15 hours you must be given 10 hours compensatory rest.

Reference FAR 121.741

Regards,
~~~^~~~
 
Hi Fins,

Let's remember the regulation is worded "...no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept any assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following" [goes on to detail normal/reduced/compensatory rest requirements]

It is a joint responsibility. If the carrier does not comply with the compensatory rest requirements, the crewmember must.
 
Fins-

Maybe I am misreading your last post, but you seem to be grouping flight and duty. After a reduced rest, you must get comp rest. However, those are both dependant on flight time. You can look at your schedule for the entire month and figure out how much rest you should get. If you are scheduled for nine hours of rest and only get eight from being reduced, you get comped with either 10 or 11 depending on the flight time you were scheduled to fly.
 
Well, OK, I should know better than to argue with a Drunk Irishman - so now to really muddy up the water:

49 Fed. Reg. 12,136, 12,136-7 (March 28, 1984). The
regulation allows a domestic airline "certificate holder" to
schedule, and a crewmember to accept, a flight assignment
only if the crewmember's total flight time does not exceed
yearly, monthly and weekly maximum flight time limitations.
14 C.F.R. s 121.471(a)(1)-(3). In addition, the regulation
establishes a maximum of eight hours of flight time between
"required rest periods." 14 C.F.R. s 121.471(a)(4). Pursuant
to subsection (b), during the twenty-four consecutive hours
preceding "the scheduled completion of any flight segment," a
crewmember must be scheduled for a rest period of at least
nine consecutive hours for eight hours or fewer of "scheduled
flight time"; ten consecutive hours of rest for more than eight
but fewer than nine hours of "scheduled flight time"; and
eleven hours of rest for nine or more hours of "scheduled
flight time." Id. s 121.471(b)(1)-(3). Subsection (c), however,
allows a carrier a measure of scheduling flexibility by way of
a "compensatory rest period." A required rest period of nine
hours may be "scheduled for or reduced to" a minimum of 8
hours if the crewmember is given compensatory rest of at
least ten hours "begin[ning] no later than 24 hours after the
commencement of the reduced rest period." Id.
s 121.471(c)(1).2 Compensatory rest, like required rest under
paragraph (b), may not be reduced or delayed under any
circumstances. See 14 C.F.R. s 121.471(e); see also 50 Fed.
Reg. at 29314 ("If a flight crewmember does not receive the
required number of hours of rest, the operator and the flight
crewmember are in violation of the regulation").3


2 Subsection (c)(2) provides that required rest under (b)(2)--ten
hours for between eight and nine hours of scheduled flight time--
may be reduced to a minimum of eight hours if the crewmember is
given a compensatory rest of at least eleven hours and (c)(3)
provides that required rest under (b)(3) may be reduced to eight
hours if compensatory rest of at least twelve hours begins no later
than twenty-four hours after commencement of the reduced rest
period. See 14 C.F.R. s 121.471(c)(2) & (3).
 
flyup said:
Those are very informative links. Thank You.



701EV, the wording in ASA's ALPA contract states the following: 13 M.2.e. "Reserve duty days shall start at the report time."



So, as you can see your ALPA representatives have absolutely no leverage in this argument. Indeed, the contract is in violation of the FAR's!!!



With all due respect, it's laughable that you would tell your fellow pilot to go to the "scheduling committee" when their sorry contract is not correct.



The FAA needs to step in and correct the ALPA contract.

The contract is correct and does not need fixing in that regard.

Duty starts at duty in time. Reserve time is not duty. It is also not rest. Therefore, when you look back it is the lack of rest that prevents you from accepting an assgnment that takes you beyond 14 hours (15 if they choose to use reduced rest) from the start of your duty period.

Your understanding seems to be what needs to be corrected. Do a little reading on how the lookback provisions work. It should clear it all up for you.
 
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flyup said:
MetroSherrif... those loud ass garret engines have made you retarded.

I may indeed, as you claim, be retarded.

I do, however, understand duty time regulations and how they pertain to Reserve Assignments. Specifically with regard to the legality and CFAR compliance of the language of the ASA Pilots CBA.

Considering your posts directing ALPA to fix our illegal contract, it would appear that your understanding of duty time provisions is somewhat lacking. I would not, however, insinuate that this is a measure of any lack of intelligence on your part.
 
Holy cow! We've been flying for 7 years under a contract which violates one of the FAR's most clear and understandable rules...and no one caught it! Not a peep.

Thanks, Flyup! We'll get right on that!
 
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Linking dictionary.com is retarted!
 
labbats said:
Linking dictionary.com is retarted!

Thanks for your input. I will keep that in mind next time. I am always open to profound insight.
 
Metro's right.....

It's the lack of look back rest that makes you illegal, not the 15 hour reserve period. Besides, the 14 hours is for "scheduled or re-scheduled" periods. You can still work up to 16 hours in a duty day, as long as you have at least 8 hours of look back rest.

Thank God our contract is illegal. Here I am the whole time thinking the company was at fault for all of our problems.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

LTG
 
Flyup,

Were you on reserve for 15hrs and then did you accept a trip and work another 14hrs?

Sec 13.m.2.e. is incorrect. Also 13.m.3 is incorrect our call out is 120 minutes.

I don't get it, whats with the sorry ALPA?

701EV
 
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Staff

ASA management is driving there pilots away with these 14 hour long days. People are really getting tired of it!!
 

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