ASA pilots, take a CLOSE look at the TA!

[John Pennekamp]

Fellow pilots,

As you know, I've been very vocal over getting this deal done and moving on.

But there's no point in moving on with an agreement that may leave us worse off in many ways with QOL, and hardly compensates us in pay for the inconvenience. And the scope looks incredibly weak.

Take a close look at the summary document and read the comments about it on this site. There is a LOT of loose language leaving key items up to company discretion. I expect better after 5 years.

The MEC says to only go to official sites for information. This is so that they can control the discussion and go after dissenters. Of course the ALPA attack dogs will go after anyone who dissents here, but we all know who they are.

Educate yourself and ask lots of hard questions at the roadshows before you decide to vote yes. Right now, I'm on the fence, leaning toward a no vote. There just isn't enough substance here.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Fellow pilots,

As you know, I've been very vocal over getting this deal done and moving on.

But there's no point in moving on with an agreement that many leave us worse off in may ways with QOL, and hardly compensates us in pay for the inconvenience. And the scope looks incredibly weak.

Take a close look at the summary document and read the comments about it on this site. There is a LOT of loose language leaving key items up to company discretion. I expect better after 5 years.

The MEC says to only go to official sites for information. This is so that they can control the discussion and go after dissenters. Of course the ALPA attack dogs will go after anyone who dissents here, but we all know who they are.

Educate yourself and ask lots of hard questions at the roadshows before you decide to vote yes. Right now, I'm on the fence, leaning toward a no vote. There just isn't enough substance here.

Step down from your podium and go back to telling your FO's what to do. This isn't the TA, it's a summary that doesn't even include the final language. Wait until the road shows start, go to one, and complain to the union if you don't like it.

I agree that it's all about the details, but when I can't even see the details yet, I will reserve judgment until I can.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Step down from your podium and go back to telling your FO's what to do. This isn't the TA, it's a summary that doesn't even include the final language. Wait until the road shows start, go to one, and complain to the union if you don't like it.

I agree that it's all about the details, but when I can't even see the details yet, I will reserve judgment until I can.

And here comes the wolf pack... and so quick with the personal attacks. How DARE I speak my opinion on an internet forum!!!! LOL! :laugh:

 

[Sinca3]

And here comes the wolf pack... and so quick with the personal attacks. How DARE I speak my opinion on an internet forum!!!! LOL! :laugh:

Will,
Voice your opinions all you want, if someone doesn't like it they don't have to listen/read.
The other poster has a point though.....wait for the final language in the ACTUAL TA and then question what needs to be questioned.
It is inappropriate for ANYONE to spread lies or misconceptions until there is real info out there to have an opinion about.
Keep it lively but don't try and pre-impose ideals on people before they have the chance to get educated on the subject matter.
Cheers

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I was saying the same thing- let's see what the road shows have to offer...

But if these "highlights" are the highs of the deal, then I retract my invitation.

Pennekamp's right. Take a close look. A very close look before going for the loot.

Unfortunately, there are many who don't understand that when there is loose language, management WILL take FULL advantage of it. Meaning, the contract won't be worth the paper it's written on.

 

[zawillif]

And the scope looks incredibly weak.

Take a close look at the summary document and read the comments about it on this site. There is a LOT of loose language leaving key items up to company discretion. I expect better after 5 years.

What language? The SUMMARY is nothing more than that. We will not see the language until the official document is made available.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Will,
Voice your opinions all you want, if someone doesn't like it they don't have to listen/read.
The other poster has a point though.....wait for the final language in the ACTUAL TA and then question what needs to be questioned.
It is inappropriate for ANYONE to spread lies or misconceptions until there is real info out there to have an opinion about.
Keep it lively but don't try and pre-impose ideals on people before they have the chance to get educated on the subject matter.
Cheers

1. I'm not "spreading lies or misconceptions" nor "pre-imposing ideals on people". I said to review it objectively and didn't even commit one way or the other on how I'll vote (though I am leaning based on the potential loopholes).

2. While I agree that this isn't the final language, I see value in pointing out potential loopholes that will need to be filled BEFORE the final language is written. It will be much harder to change after. All I've said is that if these loopholes aren't plugged, then the value of the deal goes down significantly. I think that's a fair statement. I never told anyone to vote no.

3. Didn't you say somewhere else that you left ASA?

 

[PCL_128]

I won't really give an opinion on the TA since it's your TA and your decision, but John P. is right that you guys need to look through the TA thoroughly and make an educated decision on it. If we had simply listened to the recommendation of the NPA here at AirTran, then we would be stuck with an extremely substandard contract right now. Instead, because we had pilots that thoroughly researched and educated themselves on the TA, we realized that it wasn't what was in our best interests. I'm not necessarily saying that that is the same case with your TA, but it is smart to give it the same critical review that some of our guys did. Read the TA and think for yourselves about what you deserve. That is the whole point of membership ratification.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Step down from your podium and go back to telling your FO's what to do. This isn't the TA, it's a summary that doesn't even include the final language. Wait until the road shows start, go to one, and complain to the union if you don't like it.

I agree that it's all about the details, but when I can't even see the details yet, I will reserve judgment until I can.

And before the attacks really get nasty, let me throw out this preemptive strike.

I laugh at all of you who come out of the woodwork whenever I take a controversial opinion and paint me as someone with no honor, no credibility, no respect, couldn't get re-elected, blah, blah, blah.

You all seem awful concerned about what I'm saying and try awfully hard to discredit me for someone with "no credibility". I may be a lot of things, but my dedication to the betterment of this pilot group has NEVER been challenged.

All I'm saying here, is look closely and ask lots of hard questions at the road shows. My gut instinct is telling me that this contract isn't everything it's cracked up to be. We shall see.

 

[49W]

And remember, this will be our contract for the next 8 years or so.

 

[wms]

This should be no surprise. A year, year-and-a-half ago the company was frustrated that ALPA was not releasing info from the negotiations so they released the TA'd parts of the contract; the language, not just a summary. Those TA'd parts were exactly what everyone is complaining about now, this is nothing new. The commuter clause, scheduling, reserve, integration, etc., were all seen before this.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=74256&highlight=integration

www.asacontract.com is the company web site. Some things have been improved since that debacle, but it's still pretty poor.

 

[Snapperhead]

And remember, this will be our contract for the next 8 years or so.

LOL, isn't that the truth. I'll be making my decision based on the final language and the road shows. One observation though: How the hell can our payroll dept. figure out a) block or better, b) 1:2, or c) 3.75 min. day, when they can't figure out how to automatically pay us for deadhead, cancellation, extention, vacation, checkrides, etc.?

 

[BoilerUP]

If we had simply listened to the recommendation of the NPA here at AirTran, then we would be stuck with an extremely substandard contract right now. Instead, because we had pilots that thoroughly researched and educated themselves on the TA, we realized that it wasn't what was in our best interests.

...and the most vocal of that lot got railroaded...

 

[DX Rick]

And remember, this will be our contract for the next 8 years or so.

So make sure the pay you agree on, will pay the bills for a 1st year FO in 8 years.

 

[WWEfan]

I'm reserving final judgement until the road shows.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Big problem for me in Section 13.......Scheduling committee may not randomly review scheduling data for the purpose of checking for violations.
That is the only way we can stop the violations. This is appalling!

 

[Tomct]

I am saying to wait for the final language and the road shows before you make a decision, but I think that we need to still be operating SAFELY!! DO NOT LET UP until we have seen this deal and approve of it! No relief for the company until we have WHAT WE DESERVE!!!!:angryfire

 

[Beergut]

I am saying to wait for the final language and the road shows before you make a decision, but I think that we need to still be operating SAFELY!! DO NOT LET UP until we have seen this deal and approve of it! No relief for the company until we have WHAT WE DESERVE!!!!:angryfire

I disagree. I think we should go back to doing our jobs the way a professional should. Then if the TA sucks and we go back to the table then go back to what we've been doing. It will let management know just how much impact we make. They're already sweating bullets because ASA isn't holding up their end of the contract with Delta and I don't want to fall out of the good graces of Delta anymore than we already have at this point. (Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.)

 

[Tomct]

I disagree. I think we should go back to doing our jobs the way a professional should. Then if the TA sucks and we go back to the table then go back to what we've been doing. It will let management know just how much impact we make. They're already sweating bullets because ASA isn't holding up their end of the contract with Delta and I don't want to fall out of the good graces of Delta anymore than we already have at this point. (Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.)

Well even though the mgmnt at Delta is not as bright as we might hope, THEY KNOW what we control. They get tired of being pushed around by us and THEIR pilots. I understand your point, but ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

 

[DGdaPilot]

Unfortunately, there are many who don't understand that when there is loose language, management WILL take FULL advantage of it. Meaning, the contract won't be worth the paper it's written on.

Wise words. Ask Eagle pilots what they think of the wording "at the company's discretion/option." Run away.