ASA pilot says Long Commutes not Fatiguing

[ASACAPT]

I have commuted for 9 years from Florida to Atlanta. If you do it responsibly, as I have, going up the night before for early duty inn's, it can be done safely. I don't think that we can judge all commuters as irresponsible because we have a few bad apples. It is time for everybody to take a deep breath.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Willing to bet his statements were taken out of context.....

 

[HOMER D POE]

you can't deny that commuting due to fatigue was a causal factor in this crash. you can deny it but you can't dismiss it. i know a guy that lives in the JFK crew room for five days at a time. this is appalling. He is not alone. this is the dirty little secret, not low pay, but they're related

 

[lineflyer1]

Lets see,

What I hear is driving your car can be as stressful and tiring as commuting.

Yep, I get good rest when I ride the jumpseat.

It's my right to make my life better by commuting all night, to work and kill myself and 50 others because I'm too fatigued to watch an airspeed indicator.

Ok.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Isn't Tom Z an ALPA national officer? He is saying what he's supposed to say, toeing the ALPA party line. Move along, nothing to see here...

 

[blesko]

Though I agree that someone needed to say that commuting is fine and tell congress to stuff it, yadda yadda, I dont think I've seen TZ fly a month after month of line flying like the rest of us (lately), so really, thems that dont on a regular basis might not be the voice of the rest of us?

Aren't we really supposed to be professionals? How about travel surgeons that staff hospitals when regular doctors are on vacation and commute in the same day and do surgery, Yes, that does happen. Should we look into them too?

We need our leaders not to take selfish standpoints, get a GROUP together and speak for the masses. What he should have said is at my airline, XX percent of pilots commute and a poll says these results........its the all about me mentality anymore....isn't the "union" about a group not individuality? just curious

 

[wms]

I'm a commuter and am no more tired at the end of the day when I commute in than if I have an early duty-in and stayed up too late watching TV in the hotel.

How many of us have short nights or not enough sleep the night before our trip. Commuter or not, you've stayed out too late with some friends, or stayed up late with sick kids or been out on a date with the wife or just couldn't get to sleep for whatever reason. But we continue to fly the trip because most of us work for airlines that discipline you for doing the right thing by asking to get pulled off the trip for fatigue.

Whatever the reason might be for not having enough rest before a trip, it's not the first 8 hours that are hard. It's the 12th or the 15th or 16th. Even if you are well-rested when you come to work, those days are hard and unsafe. The first problem with fatigue is overlooking small details, and the small details have led to big accidents. Commuting is not the problem. The problem is long duty days with no time to catch up, followed and preceded by short nights, whether at home or in the hotel.

Look at the accidents that are related to this and they didn't happen early in the duty day. They happened at the end of the day or on a backside-of-the-clock trip that was out of sync with the rest of the pilot's schedule.

It's not a commuting issue, it's a "the way the airlines schedule issue". The airlines know this and are going to do anything they can to keep the FAA from addressing flight crew scheduling and fatigue issues.

It's in our best interest to keep this in perspective.

 

[wms]

Maybe they should take the TVs out of crewmembers' hotel rooms, do room-checks the night before to make sure they're in bed, force them to live in the neighborhood where they are based so they don't drive more than an hour to work, etc. Make sure the kids don't come into the room at night and wake them. make sure the wife doesn't get sick and all other imaginable things that might keep someone from getting a good rest before work. If you fly red-eyes, you can't have a day job, you can't cut the grass, wash the car or run errands during the day, etc. Like I said, the issue isn't commuting.

 

[ASABound]

Commuting wasnt the problem in the Colgan Accident. The problem was a capt who should have never been in the lieft seat to begin with, and a co pilot who wasnt assertive.

 

[crj567]

Haha! Oh so true.... some ghetto chick talking on her cell phone in the fast lane doing 55 mph all the way around 285.
.

Yep- ATL is not a good place to drive. Here, people really do try and hit you. They really do get in the fast lane and drive 40 mph, while weaving thru three lanes of traffic.

I don't recommend driving around this place any more than possible. Other cities have bad traffic, but ATL has bad traffic with hate for whitey, press-on-nails and a bad weave! You best watch yo-self around here!

 

[JettBoii]

Summer time. Get up at 03:30 to catch the 05:40 flight. Two hour flight with a one hour time change. Arrive in ATL at 09:15. Duty in is at 13:45 ( could not leave later because the flights are full/oversold and I cannot compete with 1972 hire dates ). Could I get the jumpseat? Maybe but not willing to take a chance and be potentially late because someone else may already have listed for it. Did I sleep on the plane? No because the guy next to me decided to read the entire Wall Street Journal; requires having his high intensity reading light on for 2 hours. Can I sleep in the quiet room in the crew lounge? Yes for about 10 minutes then someone comes in and starts snoring like a freight train or their cell phone rings three times. My inbound first flight is 2 hours late for assorted reasons. It is a five leg day that is scheduled to finish at 11:00 PM. Did I sleep the night before? No. Wifes pager is going off; kids are coming in and out until midnight. So by leg five I am officially tired. Thankfully I did not start the trip so I am not flying the last leg into Tulsa with bad weather; yes thunderstorm do develop at night in that area. We land at midnight. Hotel at 12:40 and off to bed. Yes I have had a 20 hour day. I have a three of those. Hope I never have one again. Should I have commuted up the night before? Maybe. I dont want to spend the money on a hotel. I am a FO so I dont want to spend the money I dont have. In reference to what Bill said earlier; the commute isnt whats bad it is what leads up to and after it that makes the day long.

 

[doh]

As long as management is saying the 16 hour duty day and 8 hours reduced rest are not the problem, let the guy counter with his own illogic. He's just firing their BS backat them. And when they close my base, commuting is not a privelege. It is a necessity!

 

[CaribPilot]

The problem is that legislation signed in 1936 is still a major player in dictating our work rules. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act

It was just amended in 2008 as the "Rail Safety Improvement Act" for railway workers giving them a monumental leap in QOL.

Here are the two key points in this new legislation:

Employee may NOT remain or go on duty for a period in excess of 12 consecutive hours.

Employee may NOT remain or go on duty UNLESS the employee has had at least 10 consecutive hours undisturbed rest off duty during the prior 24 hours.


I dont see why these rules cannot apply to us. Nothing against railway workers, but i think our job is a little bit harder, and fatigue plays a much bigger role safety wise in the cockpit than it does in a train control room.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

knucklehead

Are you f-ing kidding me? Who is this guy at ASA who claims that a 3.5 hour commute is more relaxing than a 30 minute drive?

http://www.gainesville.com/article/...ilot-Long-commutes-should-not-lead-to-fatigue
Long air commutes for pilots before flights are not a safety problem and can in fact be more restful than auto commutes, an Atlantic Southeast Airlines pilot and union representative said in an interview this week.

"Capt. Tom Zerbarini is an officer with the Air Line Pilots Association and an eight-year pilot with ASA, one of two regional carriers to operate at Gainesville Regional Airport...But Zerbarini told The Sun that commutes should not lead to fatigue.

He said pilots will catch morning flights, resting on the flight, to go on afternoon duty or will fly in the day before for morning duty."
Zerbarini said his experiences with air commuting were more relaxing than his current drive in Atlanta. He spent a number of years commuting from Boston to Dallas.

"I had 3 1/2 hours to rest, read and relax and then duty in for the next day," he said. "It's more stressful to drive."

Not a safety problem. Well, there you have it folks. It's a closed case and we can deep-six all the case studies that have been conducted.

If his union title was tossed out during the interview then is that an official view or stand by the ALPA union? All I can say is WOW!!! Glad I don't send any $$$ to that union.

What a knucklehead and that's all I've got to say about that!!

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

time for change is now

The problem is that legislation signed in 1936 is still a major player in dictating our work rules. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act

It was just amended in 2008 as the "Rail Safety Improvement Act" for railway workers giving them a monumental leap in QOL.

Here are the two key points in this new legislation:

Employee may NOT remain or go on duty for a period in excess of 12 consecutive hours.

Employee may NOT remain or go on duty UNLESS the employee has had at least 10 consecutive hours undisturbed rest off duty during the prior 24 hours.


I dont see why these rules cannot apply to us. Nothing against railway workers, but i think our job is a little bit harder, and fatigue plays a much bigger role safety wise in the cockpit than it does in a train control room.

It should change for the airline/aviation industry. Any company that must follow the RLA should be held to the revised standards. Period!!

Change those rules, training standards need a tighter standard, ATP for all Part 121 crews, and maybe a national hiring standard with set minimums. There are many avenues to better serve the public and protect them plus the crews that fly for a living.

Better pay and benefits are overdue also and maybe it'll attract more and allow a better pick of hired pilots.

 

[AceyFO]

Summer time. Get up at 03:30 to catch the 05:40 flight. Two hour flight with a one hour time change. Arrive in ATL at 09:15. Duty in is at 13:45 ( could not leave later because the flights are full/oversold and I cannot compete with 1972 hire dates ). Could I get the jumpseat? Maybe but not willing to take a chance and be potentially late because someone else may already have listed for it. Did I sleep on the plane? No because the guy next to me decided to read the entire Wall Street Journal; requires having his high intensity reading light on for 2 hours. Can I sleep in the quiet room in the crew lounge? Yes for about 10 minutes then someone comes in and starts snoring like a freight train or their cell phone rings three times. My inbound first flight is 2 hours late for assorted reasons. It is a five leg day that is scheduled to finish at 11:00 PM. Did I sleep the night before? No. Wifes pager is going off; kids are coming in and out until midnight. So by leg five I am officially tired. Thankfully I did not start the trip so I am not flying the last leg into Tulsa with bad weather; yes thunderstorm do develop at night in that area. We land at midnight. Hotel at 12:40 and off to bed. Yes I have had a 20 hour day. I have a three of those. Hope I never have one again. Should I have commuted up the night before? Maybe. I dont want to spend the money on a hotel. I am a FO so I dont want to spend the money I dont have. In reference to what Bill said earlier; the commute isnt whats bad it is what leads up to and after it that makes the day long.

Sounds like a Dallas commuter.

 

[pipi]

Should I have commuted up the night before? Maybe. I dont want to spend the money on a hotel. I am a FO so I dont want to spend the money I dont have. In reference to what Bill said earlier; the commute isnt whats bad it is what leads up to and after it that makes the day long.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you should have commuted the night before. It's not even a maybe. It is an absolute YES. The fact that you CHOSE to do that is irresponsible, unprofessional, and clearly illegal, per the FARs. You can't afford a hotel? How about a crash pad?

I commuted for five years. A double commute too. From day one, with year one FO pay I had either a crash pad or a hotel. Never once did I chose to do what you do. Did I want to spend the money?Not really.Did I have the money?Not really. Did I have to pick up extra trips or use a credit card once in a while? You bet. I chose not to compromise my integrity. I knew What I was getting into. It was no shock or surprise. I knew the first couple of years would be financially tough.
If you CHOSE to get in the cockpit not rested, just because you don't want to spend the money to get a good night's rest, you don't deserve to be in the cockpit at all.

 

[Grey Ghost]

How noble of you! I love guys like you, either you lived with mom and dad for those first few years at the FO pay scale or you have one big pile of credit card debt? There is no way that somebody can pay to live at home and also pay for crashpad or hotel consistantly at what regional airlines pay in the beginning! If you say that you can, you are straight up lying and you know it!!! :smash:
Why are there so many geeks on this website?

 

[pipi]

How noble of you! I love guys like you, either you lived with mom and dad for those first few years at the FO pay scale or you have one big pile of credit card debt? There is no way that somebody can pay to live at home and also pay for crashpad or hotel consistantly at what regional airlines pay in the beginning! If you say that you can, you are straight up lying and you know it!!! :smash:
Why are there so many geeks on this website?

What's NOT NOBLE is getting in the cockpit UN-RESTED. There are many things you can do to get your rest. Is the first year going to be tough? You bet! On year three I was still catching up. I didn't mind. I had peace of mind. You can't put a price on that. You can get room mates, you can get a crashpad, you can get cheap hotels...As I said before, getting in the cockpit in the conditions described above is RECKLESS an unprofessional.

 

[ThisistheDream]

commuting is not the problem with fatigue, its the FACT the FAA says its safe to allow pilots to be on duty for 16 hours, a double shift!! What is unsafe and irresponsible is the FAA for allowing pilots to be on duty for a double shift of 16 hours!! Pilots that commute in the day before and still got 12 hours of sleep before the trip, nothing will stop them from being fatigued going on hour 16 or hour 15 ,14 ,13, 12..