ASA Picket 17th

[FishandFly]

In our new hire class less than a year ago we had management and union representation come in and talk to us together.

While management was speaking, giving us pro company bs, the union rep was standing behind him scoffing (verbally and facially) at his every comment.

After class a number of us agreed that the union reps' acting like a 4th grader swiped away our confidence in the union.

Can't help but wonder if this tactic is used in the neg. room.

 

[atrdriver]

We have a new operating environment and we have to negotiate accordingly. Taking out the company for a few dollars an hour is not doing anyone any good. With the contract carriers that could easily undercut us, we need to be a little more realistic in our monitary demands. Tactics are everything. Learn when to fight your battles and when to manipulate your wars. For every new aircraft we take delivery of means 5 more new hires, 5 more FO's getting off of reserves, 5 more FO's almost doubeling their pay moving to the left seat, and 5 more CPT's getting off reserves. That equals HUGE QOL improvements. Problem is, it does not benifit some very senior individuals with an agenda.

What you don't understand is that there has been ZERO talks about money as of yet. Maybe you need to get on the MEC web site and read the negotiations updates. Management wants you to fly 4 naps in a row, reduce the reserve call out, make duty out's after 2am be the previous day (thus depriving you of an off day), and many other things that will reduce our quality of life. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT MONEY YET. We are talking our quality of life, which really doesn't cost the company anything. You want more airplanes, fine. You want to fly them for less, then go someplace else. There are a lot of things that our CNC is asking for that would save the company money in the long run, yet they don't want to discuss any of them. Who's at fault here? I don't really know, but I do know that our CNC shows up for every negotiating session ready to work, while the company starts most sessions in a 3 hour caucas. You figure out who is trying to get something done.

 

[Tim47SIP]

What you don't understand is that there has been ZERO talks about money as of yet. Maybe you need to get on the MEC web site and read the negotiations updates. Management wants you to fly 4 naps in a row, reduce the reserve call out, make duty out's after 2am be the previous day (thus depriving you of an off day), and many other things that will reduce our quality of life. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT MONEY YET. We are talking our quality of life, which really doesn't cost the company anything. You want more airplanes, fine. You want to fly them for less, then go someplace else. There are a lot of things that our CNC is asking for that would save the company money in the long run, yet they don't want to discuss any of them. Who's at fault here? I don't really know, but I do know that our CNC shows up for every negotiating session ready to work, while the company starts most sessions in a 3 hour caucas. You figure out who is trying to get something done.

__________________
I understand what you are saying and you are correct. I am sure that the individuals that are at the negotiating table are putting in way over what they should have to for our pilots. I also understand that we havent got to the money issue yet. What I am saying is that we should not focus on one methodology (some contract + 1% or ?). We always want to go for increases and QOL issues, but the things that I hear from individuals working with the CNC are sometimes unreasonable (in my opinion-and no, I am not an expert). One individual is outright militant when he speaks about our demands. Maybe just a bit over zealous with good intentions?
QOL comes in all types of packages, some more pronounced than others. Some have more weight and others are just niceties. I of course want all we can get, but not at the cost of making ourselves uncompetitive. If our adversaries are that cunning, then maybe the current ALPA approach is not the best to deal with these guys. It is obvious that management is stalling to save capital. I can guarantee we will NOT see any retro pay on this one. I also will bet that we vote to strike to get management on the move. But it may be time to replace some or all of our current CNC guys and put in some of our seasoned vets. Arogance will only cause problems and I believe we are pushing management in a direction that no mater what we might have agreed to that would have been in our favor, they will cut off their nose to spite their face (both sides). Clear as mud?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I think most of us have simply given up on this contract. It's tiring to hear the same old stuff- "managment continues to... blah blah blah..." I believe most of us don't have the energy or interest in being angry anymore. Maybe we have resigned ourselves to this battle, and become used to the low morale and continual b.s. from this place. Most of us just want O-U-T. I want O-U-T. If this is what we have to look forward to for the next 30 years (some of us god willing), then I guess it is what it is.

In my opinion, the MEC has waited either too long, or not long enough before going in to their end-game plan. It will be interesting to see if the MEC can rally the troops more effectively in the next six months. If not, I'm afraid we're doomed for that ole' "zero net gain" contract management is winning the battle over. I hope more of us get out and picket as the weather warms here in Atlanta and Salt Lake. I, for one, would like to see more information from the MEC. They should have more folks out there spreading the word, and educating this young pilot group on the aspects of the negotiation process, and what direction these negotiations should be going. Most of us don't know the intricacies of contract negotiations. I hope our CNC does though....

 

[Ted Striker]

I can guarantee we will NOT see any retro pay on this one.

Then I can guarantee a NO vote from me. I do not believe management has negotiated in good faith this entire time. I think they are playing games and will continue to until we really start to bust their balls. Expressjet got 100% Retro at Comair payrates. Nothing less for us.

 

[japhy]

In our new hire class less than a year ago we had management and union representation come in and talk to us together.

While management was speaking, giving us pro company bs, the union rep was standing behind him scoffing (verbally and facially) at his every comment.

After class a number of us agreed that the union reps' acting like a 4th grader swiped away our confidence in the union.

Can't help but wonder if this tactic is used in the neg. room.

Everytime I've seen a union rep talk in front of a group of us I've seen the same thing. Same thing in my new hire class. I rest my case.

 

[atrdriver]

In our new hire class less than a year ago we had management and union representation come in and talk to us together.

While management was speaking, giving us pro company bs, the union rep was standing behind him scoffing (verbally and facially) at his every comment.

After class a number of us agreed that the union reps' acting like a 4th grader swiped away our confidence in the union.

Can't help but wonder if this tactic is used in the neg. room.

Try having one of the company VP's doing that to SB when he was talking during the OP4 classes we had to attend last year. Maybe the reason that the union reps were doing that was that they have heard it all before and know better. You see the act once during your basic indoc, they see it EVERY basic indoc. I can tell you though that our negotiators show up for EVERY session prepared, while the company negotiators often won't show up until 2 or 3pm, having been in caucus all day. When all we have is 7 or 8 days a month for talks, that takes a serious toll.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Another management shill. What dept do you work in? A bored crew scheduler perhaps??? Get back to work....

News flash for you MetroSheriff, not everyone who disagrees with the MEC or ALPA is a "management shill". This is the problem with unions - they don't like people to have their own thoughts.

 

[InclusiveScope]

This was written because the people that did not show up and were OFF, basically flipped off the MEC, and said " I want you to negotiate a good contract for me, but I am not going to be a part of it.." These people gave the MEC, and thier fellow ASA Pilots a BIG F*$#K YOU Middle finger. So the MEC has every right to call them out.

Maybe there is a reason for this. I have talked with a bunch of our pilots. What I get is that the chest thumpers on this web site are unequovocally the minority. Additionally, I have some very close freinds that were or are closely involved with the CNC and some of the horor stories I have heard are very upsetting. If I were queen for a day, I would select another CNC WITH EXPERIENCE in negotiating immediately. There was a lot more that was going on when the two CNC members were let go or quit in 2003 than was initially released. That is just the tip of the iceburg.

We have a new operating environment and we have to negotiate accordingly. Taking out the company for a few dollars an hour is not doing anyone any good. With the contract carriers that could easily undercut us, we need to be a little more realistic in our monitary demands. Tactics are everything. Learn when to fight your battles and when to manipulate your wars. For every new aircraft we take delivery of means 5 more new hires, 5 more FO's getting off of reserves, 5 more FO's almost doubeling their pay moving to the left seat, and 5 more CPT's getting off reserves. That equals HUGE QOL improvements. Problem is, it does not benifit some very senior individuals with an agenda.

Very well said Tim! I was involved in the beginning and you are correct. Our side has made many tacticle errors over the years. We are playing chess with a checker's mentality and we are losing.

 

[InclusiveScope]

What you don't understand is that there has been ZERO talks about money as of yet. Maybe you need to get on the MEC web site and read the negotiations updates. Management wants you to fly 4 naps in a row, reduce the reserve call out, make duty out's after 2am be the previous day (thus depriving you of an off day), and many other things that will reduce our quality of life. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT MONEY YET. We are talking our quality of life, which really doesn't cost the company anything. You want more airplanes, fine. You want to fly them for less, then go someplace else. There are a lot of things that our CNC is asking for that would save the company money in the long run, yet they don't want to discuss any of them. Who's at fault here? I don't really know, but I do know that our CNC shows up for every negotiating session ready to work, while the company starts most sessions in a 3 hour caucas. You figure out who is trying to get something done.

Actually atrdriver, QOL issues (scheduling, hours of service, and filling of vacancies) are very much money issues. They require the company to hire more pilots. This costs money in training and benefits, especially health care. They also restrict the company in reacting quickly to schedule changes and IROPs. All these things actually cost more to the company than simple W2 increases. I have maintained since the beginning that W2 increases will be easier to achieve than the "QOL issues".

 

[atrdriver]

Actually atrdriver, QOL issues (scheduling, hours of service, and filling of vacancies) are very much money issues. They require the company to hire more pilots. This costs money in training and benefits, especially health care. They also restrict the company in reacting quickly to schedule changes and IROPs. All these things actually cost more to the company than simple W2 increases. I have maintained since the beginning that W2 increases will be easier to achieve than the "QOL issues".

And some of the issues that we consider to be QOL include a more efficient scheduling system. One that doesn't waste you sitting in the bada bing lounge for 3 hours twice a day reading my worthless posts here. You know as well as I do that the ATR schedules suck, and if they were actually built with some efficiency in mind we wouldn't have the staffing problems that we do. This is something that WOULD save the company money, and would be a huge QOL improvement for us.

 

[InclusiveScope]

And some of the issues that we consider to be QOL include a more efficient scheduling system. One that doesn't waste you sitting in the bada bing lounge for 3 hours twice a day reading my worthless posts here. You know as well as I do that the ATR schedules suck, and if they were actually built with some efficiency in mind we wouldn't have the staffing problems that we do. This is something that WOULD save the company money, and would be a huge QOL improvement for us.

Actually your not correct. PBS is the most efficient way to build lines and it is not being considered by our MEC. I'm not sure I want PBS, but it is the most efficient way to build the lines.

I don't think the company is building the ATR lines this way on purpose. If anyone should complain about the ATR lines, it should be me. However this is a function of short legs. You will have a hard time building lines to 80 hours with legs that are less than an hour. We saw it on the BAE146 and now we are seeing it on the ATR. The RJ lines are much better because of longer legs and many more combinations of flows.

Mike M. said any ATR pilot is more than welcome to try and build more efficient lines and he would give you credit. Nobody has taken him up on the offer.

Since you brought it up atrdriver, what kind of contractual language would make the schedules more efficient and that BOTH sides would welcome. Give me SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, not some abstract "make them more efficient". I anoint you King for the day. Write the language as you would like to see it.

 

[av8tor4239]

I, for one, would like to see more information from the MEC. They should have more folks out there spreading the word, and educating this young pilot group on the aspects of the negotiation process, and what direction these negotiations should be going. Most of us don't know the intricacies of contract negotiations. I hope our CNC does though....

I am not sure what your stance is here, whether you are informed and you think that there are alot of people that are not informed, or you yourself are not informed..

Based on your comments above you sound like you are very misinformed.

Effective means of communication from our MEC:

1)VARS phone line
2)MEC website
3)ALPA main website
4)Pilot to Pilot rep
5)The new phone tree
6)the abort newsletter
7)the mec messageboard
8)weekly blast emails
9)the connection newsletter
10)showing up to events (mec/lec meetings, informational picketing)

Is this list not enough.. i can probably come up with some more..

If you want INFO... volunteer to be a P2P rep.. there is a trainng session coming up like next week.. very easy.. go to the mec website and look it up under P2P. 9-3, free lunch and you learn something.. not to mention you get an ASPEN voicemail box and you are the first to know when ANYTHING happens, and it is your responsibility to relay the message to your fellow aviators.. so instead of b!tching you dont have any info.. you should become the source of the info.


NO MORE EXCUSES

 

[InclusiveScope]

NO MORE EXCUSES

Maybe ALPA should take that advice!

 

[atrdriver]

Mike M. said any ATR pilot is more than welcome to try and build more efficient lines and he would give you credit. Nobody has taken him up on the offer.

Since you brought it up atrdriver, what kind of contractual language would make the schedules more efficient and that BOTH sides would welcome. Give me SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, not some abstract "make them more efficient". I anoint you King for the day. Write the language as you would like to see it.

Yeah, Mike said that to me too. I tried some combinations when I had time, but that's not what I get paid for. If I had all the answers I wouldn't have bid off the airplane, as you probably know. What I do know is that we had better schedules than we do now back before we got the PEC's, and we were flying to the same places that we are now. Yes they were 7 leg days, and they weren't staged overnights, but then again, they were 15 and 16 days off. What you have now is 5 and 6 leg days and 11 or 12 days off. With 3+ hour breaks on almost every trip. Maybe you don'lt agree, but most of the guys I talked to thought that sucked.

But, if I were king for a day, as you have gratiously annointed me, one thing that I would most definatly do is make integration SENIORITY based, not a system where planning and scheduling can attempt to use every pilot on every one of their integration days. I would also make it worthwhile for a pilot to pick up open time, which would alleviate some of the staffing problems. I don't know that I would want PBS, unless we had some serious control over it, which would probably prevent our getting it in the first place.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Yeah, Mike said that to me too. I tried some combinations when I had time, but that's not what I get paid for. If I had all the answers I wouldn't have bid off the airplane, as you probably know.

But I thought you did have all the answers. You sounded like it is a no-brainer to build these great 80 hour lines with 16 days off and 45 minute legs. But no, you cop out with "that's not what I get paid for" BS. I take it you couldn't do better. Enough said.

What I do know is that we had better schedules than we do now back before we got the PEC's, and we were flying to the same places that we are now. Yes they were 7 leg days, and they weren't staged overnights, but then again, they were 15 and 16 days off. What you have now is 5 and 6 leg days and 11 or 12 days off. With 3+ hour breaks on almost every trip. Maybe you don'lt agree, but most of the guys I talked to thought that sucked.

These are the worst schedules I've had in years. However I don't think it is some conspiracy to screw ATR pilots. I also think the only way I am going to get better schedules is to go to the RJ. Staged overnights, limited flows, and short legs will not get you any better than 4 on 3 off.

But, if I were king for a day, as you have gratiously annointed me, one thing that I would most definatly do is make integration SENIORITY based, not a system where planning and scheduling can attempt to use every pilot on every one of their integration days. I would also make it worthwhile for a pilot to pick up open time, which would alleviate some of the staffing problems. I don't know that I would want PBS, unless we had some serious control over it, which would probably prevent our getting it in the first place.

1. Integration is seniority based.
2. I don't argue with paying more for open time, but that does cost the company money, so it isn't one of your "no cost" improvements.
3. PBS is the most efficient way to schedule crews and I thought that is what you wanted.

 

[atrdriver]

But I thought you did have all the answers. You sounded like it is a no-brainer to build these great 80 hour lines with 16 days off and 45 minute legs. But no, you cop out with "that's not what I get paid for" BS. I take it you couldn't do better. Enough said.




These are the worst schedules I've had in years. However I don't think it is some conspiracy to screw ATR pilots. I also think the only way I am going to get better schedules is to go to the RJ. Staged overnights, limited flows, and short legs will not get you any better than 4 on 3 off.




1. Integration is seniority based.
2. I don't argue with paying more for open time, but that does cost the company money, so it isn't one of your "no cost" improvements.
3. PBS is the most efficient way to schedule crews and I thought that is what you wanted.

No, integration is supposed to be seniority based, but since there is no way to check up on scheduling there is no way to know if they are adhering to that. And month to month you will find that most ATR pilots are being integrated if they are legal to work.

I am not saying that the hosing of the ATR pilots is a conspiracy, but there are ways to make better schedules, with or without PBS. And as far as premium for open time, yes it would certainly cost the company a little more, but I bet it would cost them a whole lot less than cancelling flights because they don't have the crews to fly.