ASA pay scales

[Toy Soldier]

Anyone know what the ASA pay scales are????

 

[~~~^~~~]

The entire pay scale would be rather lengthy to type in. Also, everything depends on growth. ASA is not currently growing, but there is much debate on this board on what the future holds.

First year is $19.02 plus $1.50 an hour per diem for every hour you are out of base. Figure on $19,000 to $25,000 (including your per diem) depending on how many trips you pick up and if you are able to get off reserve.

Second year jet FO is $33.65 an hour. My second year W2 (includes three months at first year rates) was $32,421.60 with another $3,700 in per diem.

From there on out figure on about 5% increases until you make Captain. The Captain upgrade will put you close to $50,000 and around $60,000 when you are senior enough to hold a line.

Right now it is taking around four to five years to hold a line as a Jet Captain. There are some junior Captains who upgraded back when we were growing, but many of those pilots have been displaced to Dallas and will probably eventually be displaced back to the right seat since we have less flying now (under the Delta Pilot's scope restrictions) than we did previously.

 

[FL000]

Prof,

On which aircraft were captains displaced to Dallas? With the reference to a right-seat displacement, I'm assuming you're speaking of the E-120. There's no way that there will be such activity in the jet in the near, or even distant, future.

By the way, I'll bet that if someone posted a message asking for the recipe for grandma's buttered squash, you'd find a way to get a scope dig in there. It gets kind of old, like a broken record...even for those who are on your side.

FL000

 

[MetroSheriff]

By the way, I'll bet that if someone posted a message asking for the recipe for grandma's buttered squash, you'd find a way to get a scope dig in there. It gets kind of old, like a broken record...even for those who are on your side.

Interesting you should mention hot, buttered squash. You know for years, all the hot, buttered squash in the country was made by a large company in Atlanta. Then, a few years back, a much smaller company, also in Atlanta, started making hot, buttered squash. They only sold their hot, buttered squash around the Atlanta at first. They were very profitable, and began to market their hot, buttered squash all around the Southeast. They continued to prosper and be profitable. Many people felt it was because the hot, buttered squash makers and the smaller company were paid significantly less than their hot, buttered squash making counterparts at the large company. Eventually the smaller company stumbled upon some new hot, buttered squash making technology that enabled them to expand even further. The technology was similar, and in some cases more sophisticated than the methods used to make hot, buttered squash at the large company.

After long last, the large company decided to purchase the small company and have them produce a good percentage of their hot, buttered squash and market it as their own. The smaller entity continued to prosper and grow at a staggering 20% per year.

Needless to say, the hot, buttered squash makers at the parent company didn't like this, and in a recent labor contract implemented a policy whereby the smaller company's growth was tied to larger company's growth.

According to some, this is terribly unfair. Now the small company is only growing at 5% per year. They lament that it is taking almost 2 whole years for the assistant hot, buttered squash makers to move up to head hot, buttered squash makers. Some of the hot, buttered squash makers at the small company can do nothing but complain they they are not head hot, buttered squash makers, or better yet, promoted directly to hot, buttered squash at the larger company. They argue that this is predetory "scope", and it is bad. "Inclusive scope" they argue, is more fair to the hot, buttered squash at the subsidiary , and it is good. The have even formed a "coalition" to sue the pants of the bargaining agent of the hot, buttered squash makers, insisting it is their fault for allowing these predetory practices. Much has been made of the issue. They believe everything the hot, buttered squash makers at the large company do is an effort to harm the career potential of the hot, buttered squash makers at the subsidiary, the most boisterous of whom claim they "never wanted to be hot, buttered squash makers at the big company anyway".

If you want the real truth, not one-sided propaganda with any bias or prejudice, you can read about the issues and see all the case studies at the website of the Regional Hot, Buttered Squash Makers Defense Coalition. They happily accept your donation of any extra money you may have.

Remember the mantra of the Regional Hot, Buttered Squash Makers Defense Coalition:

"Preditory scope is bad, but inclusive scope is good."

Bumper stickers are available to supporter pledging in excess of $100.00 per month. Contact the RHBSMDC for details at

www.RHBSMDC.com

 

[MetroSheriff]

Toy Soldier,

To answer your question with out any editorializing, the below rates are currently in effect and will stay until our new contract is signed at some point down the road.

CRJ (50) & ATR Captain

Year

1 54.46
2 56.08
3 57.78
4 59.50
5 61.29
10 70.36
15 81.57


CRJ (50) & ATR F/O

1 19.02
2 33.65
3 34.67
4 35.70
5 36.77
6 37.78
7 38.63


EMB-120 Captain

Year

1 43.08
2 44.37
3 45.70
4 47.08
5 48.49
10 55.56
15 64.63


EMB-120 F/O

1 19.02
2 26.62
3 27.42
4 28.25
5 29.09
6 29.97
7 30.57

 

[~~~^~~~]

FL000: The displacements were indeed on the E120. Those guys can no longer hold ATL E120 Capt, and are not senior enough to hold CRJ Capt. The cut off for the displacements was seniority number 925.

 

[FlyingSig]

MetroSheriff,

Man, that was funny....thank you!




and...

....since we have less flying now (under the Delta Pilot's scope restrictions) than we did previously.

That's pretty funny too....(just when I thought we were making progress )

Mind pointing out in the Jan. 1 schedule where mainline flying replaced ASA flying? I'd love to see it.... I can point out where SkyWest is taking over DFW due to the lack of scope in the ASA contract....

 

[O2Hit]

Touche' Metro, very intertaining.

 

[MetroSheriff]

I can point out where SkyWest is taking over DFW due to the lack of scope in the ASA contract....

FlyingSig,

Great point. I have yet to see where Delta is a threat to us. My feeling is that DALPA is potentially our greatest ally. What concerns me is ACA, SkyWest and Eagle (LAX). I have yet to see any RJDC propaganda that addresses the loss of block hours to Skywest, out of our DFW hub none the less. Regardless, I am not sure how suing ALPA is to our benefit. ALPA is in no position to force Delta to do anything, regardless of the outcome of any lawsuit.

From what I have seen the RJDC tactic is: READY, FIRE!, AIM.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Metro:

Have you privately e-mailed Flying Sig to see if he will write you a letter of recommendation?

And yes - the RJDC has tried to fix the problem of Skywest. That problem is part and parcel of the the fact that we have five separate labor groups competing for Delta's domestic narrow body flying.

It is a shame that you deride and ridicule the pilots that are trying to restore your career.

If you want to read a "real world" version of your squash story check out articles on CONNELL CO. v. PLUMBERS & STEAMFITTERS, 421 U.S. 616. In that case Jutice Powell found that "Labor policy clearly does not require, however, that a union have freedom to impose direct restraints on competition among those who employ its members." Further that, "Curtailment of competition based on efficiency is neither a goal of federal labor policy nor a necessary effect of the elimination of competition among workers. Moreover, competition based on efficiency is a positive value that the antitrust laws strive to protect."

Based on this reasoning, I would argue that your hot buttered squash makers have a good case against their oppressors. The only way for the hot buttered squash makers to fix the problem is to combine lists, because the Courts will not allow the artificial restrainsts on trade otherwise.

A union has the power to represent employees for collective bargaining purposes, but trying to limit a new, more efficient, way of doing business is illegal.

Of course in your case, you left out any mention of the same union representing the different labor groups to the same employer. You also left out any violation of the union's own Constitution and Bylaws, as well as bad faith in carrying out the union's fiduciary duties to represent both groups equally, without discrimination and without arbitrary conduct.

The RJDC litigation is based on ALPA's failure to properly represent members at ASA. However, I believe that separate litigation will attack ALPA's whole methodology of scoping flying by aircraft types based on US anti trust laws.

Simply put, ALPA is in legal hot water from many angles on this issue. It would be best for ALPA and the Delta MEC to fix their mess now. If an anti trust suit were won it could destroy scope at every single airline under US jurisdiction and the political climate is not favorable to ALPA right now.

Besides, ALPA loses nothing and gains much by simply doing the right thing

 

[MetroSheriff]

Fins,

Have you privately e-mailed Flying Sig to see if he will write you a letter of recommendation?

No, I haven't. I knew that would be the response from someone. More than likely, you. It is your canned response to anyone at DCI who does not jump on your ALPA-bashing, self-pity, I-can't-upgrade-because-of-predatory-scope, RJDC bandwagon. If someone doesn't agree you accuse them of kissing a Delta pilot's a$$. Give it a rest.

If it will make you feel better, and give me some credibility in your eyes, I will start a whole thread dedicated to Delta pilot jokes. Something tells me that a guy like FlyingSig would laugh and not take it personally. Would that help???

It is a shame that you deride and ridicule the pilots that are trying to restore your career.

It is a shame that you deride and ridicule pilots who respectfully disagree with you. My squash post was a light-hearted attempt at humor, and I imagine about 99% of the readers take it that way. Not everything is a personal vendetta against you or the DCI pilots (which I happen to be).

And yes - the RJDC has tried to fix the problem of Skywest. That problem is part and parcel of the the fact that we have five separate labor groups competing for Delta's domestic narrow body flying.

Strange. I am no expert on the RJDC, by any means. My understanding is that they (RJDC) are pissed at ALPA for not following the now infamous C&BLs, and seeking to nullify the "predatory scope" language in the most recent DALPA contract. Nowhere have I read about RJDC "fixing the Skywest problem". To the contrary, I know I have seen the RJDC propaganda advertised on the old Skywest web board. I find it hard to believe they would be looking for contributions from a pilot group that they consider a "problem" which needs to be "fixed".

As I have said before, I agree with you on many points. I think ALPA is weighted in favor of the big boys. No foolin', huh? they know where there bread is buttered. I think whipsaw sucks. I hate seeing Skywest airplanes on the ramp in DFW, when ours aren't on the ramp in SLC. I hate reading the Eagle is carrying our pax in LAX. I would like to end put to that &%#$ today. My belief is the answer is ONELIST. The ONLY way I see that EVER having a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding is with the ardant support of the Delta pilots. Suing ALPA won't accomplish squat, ALPA can't make Delta do anything. We need the Delta pilots on our side. Suing our own union, and hence the people whose help we need the most isn't the way, in my humble opinion.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Metro:

You just don't get it. If scope based on aircraft type is unenforceable, then DALPA will do anything to have us on one list & "all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots."

Now would that kind of inclusive scope also provide the perfect answer for your Skywest concerns?

You know ALPA proved that it could not be trusted when "representing" ASA and Comair pilots. We tried being "nice." They tried begging and following the same rules ALPA published, then refused to follow. The litigation was (and is) our last option to force ALPA to act in good faith. (In case you have not noticed, ALPA national has been on much better behavior since they now know that their actions are being reviewed by the Court.)

The pilots in the RJDC suit are very reluctant plaintiffs - there is just is not any other way. The Court is forcing ALPA and the Delta MEC to address this issue - the fact that these parties are compelled to engage in a dialouge and negotiations is REAL progress IMHO.

ALPA is slowly beginning to realize that this lawsuit is the dynomite that could blow apart their entire large jet / small jet apartied scope. Once they figure this out ALPA will rush to end the alter - ego connection carriers and the only way to do this is single carrier petitions for airlines performing (XXX) brand flying. (which is something ALPA should have done without being forced - it is just good common sense)

One union, one level of representation, one airline, one list.

 

[Toy Soldier]

Delta Pilot's scope restrictions

What is this scope thing?

 

[FL000]

Metro:

It is a shame that you deride and ridicule the pilots that are trying to restore your career.

Prof,

It's a shame that the instigators of the organization and the lawsuit did not survey their own group before launching an attack on the union. I don't know anyone who would argue with the ends that you want to achieve, but many of us are uncomfortable with the means: a plaintiff's lawsuit against the people that we work with every day. Now we have turned into unwitting spokesmen every time we occupy a major jumpseat. Most of them don't understand that most of us don't agree with the methods of the RJDC.

Please don't tell me that you're not after DALPA or the people of ALPA, because that is where ALL of their defense money is coming from, and that includes me...MY paycheck. I take it personally.

So the next time you want to "restore" my career, how about asking me first. I don't like having things shoved down my throat without a courtesy call. So far, y'all haven't done me any favors.

In the past, you have graced this board and others with some good info and advice. These days, all I see from you is a bitter RJDC mantra. You go around to these sites and pound on the proverbial door like a jet-hova's witness. I see a lot of your target audience slamming said door on your toes. Do us a favor and just go back to being good 'ol Prof.

I'm not saying that there's no place for you to make your argument, but please don't make a place wherever you see fit. It really is fatiguing.

Sorry to have to say all this, but I've been pushed to the edge.

Respectfully,
FL000

 

[MetroSheriff]

Fins,

Good post.

You just don't get it. If scope based on aircraft type is unenforceable, then DALPA will do anything to have us on one list & "all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots."

You are correct. I don't get it. I am not a Delta pilot. Neither are you. I am a Delta (subsidiary) employee, but I am an ASA pilot. Given the friction that exists between the groups, and the fact that many Delta pilots are on the street right now, what is to keep DALPA from pushing to fly the RJs at mainline, with THEIR pilots.

Now would that kind of inclusive scope also provide the perfect answer for your Skywest concerns?

Would it? I don't see how. As I said, I am not a Delta pilot. Skywest certainly aren't Delta pilots. In fact they are not even ALPA pilots. Are you suggesting that ACA and Skywest would be included in a ONELIST proposal? That doesn't work for me. As I have said, I have many friends at Skywest. My issue with them rests in that we have different goals. ASA and Comair are bothpart of the Delta family and our goal is to see Delta (DCI)succeed and prosper. Skywest and ACA have no loyalty to Delta. The will fly for Delta, United, or anyone who agrees to pay their fee-per-departure.

I agree that scope based on a/c type is wrong. I believe that the market should determine a/c type and that Delta (any airline for that matter) should be free to deploy a/c in a manner which will allow them to be profitable. What I fail to see is how this addresses the issue of whipsaw. If scope is struck down, it would seem to me that it would allow mgt to exacerbate the problem by expanding, as the new head of DCI has said,"the portfolio of carriers that make up DCI" and giving the flying to the lowest bidder.

My belief is that scope is important. I would like to scope all DCI flying for ASA/Comair, thereby keeping all Delta flying in the "Delta family". Once that is accomplished, we could move forward on the ONELIST front, working with DALPA, which as I have said, I believe to be our potentially, most important, ally.

You know ALPA proved that it could not be trusted when "representing" ASA and Comair pilots. We tried being "nice."

No argument from me. I have never said ALPA is treating us fairly. We don't fill their coffers the way the big boys do, so that is to be expected. I certainly don't agree with it, but I am not sure this lawsuit will fix it. I could be wrong.

The Court is forcing ALPA and the Delta MEC to address this issue - the fact that these parties are compelled to engage in a dialouge and negotiations is REAL progress IMHO.

Is that so? I don't know. I have yet to see anything substantive on the RJDC site. Just crew room banter. What dialouge and negotiations? How come all I ever hear is solicitation for donations?

ALPA is slowly beginning to realize that this lawsuit is the dynomite that could blow apart their entire large jet / small jet apartied scope.

They are??? Where can I read that for myself. How come my union reps don't tell me this.

Once they figure this out ALPA will rush to end the alter - ego connection carriers and the only way to do this is single carrier petitions for airlines performing (XXX) brand flying.

Wouldn't that be great? But what happens to the codeshare fee for departure carriers? That would leave them out in the cold. Again I ask the question, why are they soliciting help from those they intend to carve out of the deal. That is what smells fishy to me, and no one will answer the question.

One union, one level of representation, one airline, one list.

On this, we are in 100% agreement. I just think we need the help of the big boys to accomplish our goals, and my mother always said you catch more flys with honey than with, you know

Good conversation by the way. I would like to hear some input from some Delta guys though. FlyingSig, your thoughts on the matter???